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As for the kids in the Maidan, there was nothing fascist/Nazi about them.
Really? So what we saw on Youtube videos - all these explosives, the violent gangs of the nationalists - that was all figment of our imagination?
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Using this kind of language does not further your argument.
So what language should we use for the likes of "Pravy Sector?"
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They wanted Ukraine to be like European countries and they still do.
So how it's working out for them so far?
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If wanting rule of law and accountable government is fascist in your mind, that's your problem. They weren't western Ukrainians only either. I knew some personally from Zaporozhiye, last I checked that is not next to Lvov.
Right. And I know personally someone from Lvov fighting in Donbass opolchenie. Now what?
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They did have support of Ukrainian fascists like Pravy Sector and Svaboda but outside of Russian TV, fascists never had power in Ukraine. Exaggerating those 2 groups influence in Ukraine's government did nothing to further Russia's credibility.
We are talking nationalists here. And they are the ones that propelled the "new democratic government" to power.
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The east doesn't have the economic power of Ukraine. This is not 1960 Soviet Union, coal and steel plants aren't the future of the economy anymore. Kiev has the economic power.
It does? With wonderful hi-tech companies that "West" is rushing to invest into, with amazing scientists that churn out tonnes of technological breaks-through, and the state of art factories that produce all kind of stuff ready to be exported? No? I didn't think so. And until this "economic power of Kiev" has nothing to show, the "East" prefers to stick to what it has so far - coal and steel plants.
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Now the east doesn't have a future, totally ruined for a generation thanks to the Russian invasion. European investment is happening but not east of the Dnieper.
That's precisely what the "East" is trying to avoid - those "European investments." If the "West" is ready to wash the bathrooms in coveted Europe - the "East" has no desire to supply cheap labor after their economy will go in shambles. It has enough of national pride for that.
There is a process to remove him, and they did not do that. Also, the vote was around the corner, but the opposition knew they would never obtain enough votes to oust him, so they resulted to violence.
I guarantee if masses of people were outside the Whitehouse wanting to oust the US president by force, US forces would open fire before they allow that to happen. I do not know why anyone gets upset when the government uses force to preserve itself. Hell, Bahrain sued force and even had Saudi forces come in, not a word from the US...
Opposing party meaning those who did not win. Yanukovich has support in the east and Crimea, and those are the places that wanted out. Everyone else voted against him. It was not the youth of Ukraine, it was a bunch of western fascists who do not appreciate democracy, and never had. They knew there candidate will never win, so the poor rednecks used force because Kiev happens to be located right in the area that is full of them.
These tools do not want normal European country, they want a visa to leave out of Ukraine for west Europe. They want it there way, and to hell with democracy. Look at those lovely folks, with their Nazi style ways and all, great group to come into power, and guess what, years later Ukraine is even worse.
The east has the ecnomic power and the population to greatly sway Ukrainian politics. Even after the Orange revolt, the leaders were so horrible that Yanukovish was voted in again, and by who? The east, the same group who now want nothing to do with Ukraine.
Yanukovych does not have the support of the population, and did not even have it before.
Otherwise, events would develop in a different scenario.
Yanukovych does not have the support of the population, and did not even have it before.
Otherwise, events would develop in a different scenario.
He was voted in, I fail to see what you do not understand about this. When people in a democratic country do not want a person in office any more, they wait until the next election and vote him out. It really is that simple. If a person in office commits a crime or other things that warrant their removal, then there is a process in which this is conducted.
The Maiden protesters do not like democracy nor any constitutional process unless it favors them. They did not want to wait for the next election (because they know Yanukovich would win). The protesters did not want the constitutional process to remove him because, again, it may find him innocent and a person they want may just not take his place.
Now look at Ukraine, its situation is a result of people not abiding by the working democratic that was in place. They lost the areas of Ukraine that backed Yanukovich because hell, why stay with a country that violently overthrows a person you voted for? Crimea is gone, rightfuly so because Kiev even under Yanukovich treated the place like crap, and Donbass, Ukraine's economic powerhouse, is now gone.
He had support in the east and Crimea. Things changed quickly however. As for the kids in the Maidan, there was nothing fascist/Nazi about them. Using this kind of language does not further your argument. They wanted Ukraine to be like European countries and they still do. If wanting rule of law and accountable government is fascist in your mind, that's your problem. They weren't western Ukrainians only either. I knew some personally from Zaporozhiye, last I checked that is not next to Lvov. They did have support of Ukrainian fascists like Pravy Sector and Svaboda but outside of Russian TV, fascists never had power in Ukraine. Exaggerating those 2 groups influence in Ukraine's government did nothing to further Russia's credibility.
No, they are a heavy influence. The lines on which this conflict lay are similar to previous conflict lines. The fascists, though in numbers small, do have a large influence and helped drive the nationalists BS in Ukraine that has thrown fuel on the fire. Kiev has frequent fascist protests, and it is even to the point Kiev will not remove a few of them from blocking trains from Donbass, due to Kiev's fear of losing support of these fascists.
West Ukraine is the center of these people, and they have always been the source of issues in Ukraine. They are also the poorest group, and everything about them is different than others in Ukraine, to the point I will never understand why anyone considers them Ukrainian. But they think they are the true Ukrainians, and everyone else is not.
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Originally Posted by DKM
The east doesn't have the economic power of Ukraine. This is not 1960 Soviet Union, coal and steel plants aren't the future of the economy anymore. Kiev has the economic power. Now the east doesn't have a future, totally ruined for a generation thanks to the Russian invasion. European investment is happening but not east of the Dnieper.
Donbass is the economic engine of Ukraine, that is not even an opinion, that is a fact. All the industry and resources are there, and it is the wealthiest area of Ukraine. Kiev does not have anything other than government, in which it is easy to have economic power when taxes are funding it. But in regards to actual economic productivity, Donbass is the power house.
There is no Russian invasion, if there was, the conflict would have been over long ago. People like you cannot get past the fact that Donbass voted and supported Yanukoich, and he was removed contrary to democratic ideals, thus the areas that supported him pretty much gave up with the rest of Ukraine after two revolts. WHo in the hell would stick around to be part of a country that ousts the leader you voted for?
I see I stirred up the nest at the troll office as I recognize the word patterns from times past. Relax guys I'm not going to engage in much further as I know how it goes when I have your attention, I am satisfied with my responses. Keep bashing Ukraine anywhere you can, its funny but kind of sad to watch Russians hoping to make Ukrainians turn back to Russia with this technique. Babushka doesn't need indexed pensions, Putin has a kleptocracy to save...
No, they are a heavy influence. The lines on which this conflict lay are similar to previous conflict lines. The fascists, though in numbers small, do have a large influence and helped drive the nationalists BS in Ukraine that has thrown fuel on the fire. Kiev has frequent fascist protests, and it is even to the point Kiev will not remove a few of them from blocking trains from Donbass, due to Kiev's fear of losing support of these fascists.
West Ukraine is the center of these people, and they have always been the source of issues in Ukraine. They are also the poorest group, and everything about them is different than others in Ukraine, to the point I will never understand why anyone considers them Ukrainian. But they think they are the true Ukrainians, and everyone else is not.
Donbass is the economic engine of Ukraine, that is not even an opinion, that is a fact. All the industry and resources are there, and it is the wealthiest area of Ukraine. Kiev does not have anything other than government, in which it is easy to have economic power when taxes are funding it. But in regards to actual economic productivity, Donbass is the power house.
There is no Russian invasion, if there was, the conflict would have been over long ago. People like you cannot get past the fact that Donbass voted and supported Yanukoich, and he was removed contrary to democratic ideals, thus the areas that supported him pretty much gave up with the rest of Ukraine after two revolts. WHo in the hell would stick around to be part of a country that ousts the leader you voted for?
I can mostly agree with the first 2 paragraphs. We could argue about the degree of influence but its a matter of perspective. I can sort of agree with the last paragraph too, I've been to the Donbas and Crimea and am well aware of the prevailing mood there. I'm sure it grew MUCH worse after the "coup" (and I agree it was sort of a coup) especially since what I saw Russia was broadcasting as news there.
There was definitely Russian attack on Ukraine's army in August of 2014 though. That part you can't explain away. They attacked from the rear from Illoviask all the way to the Azov coast. This is well documented and while you can point to any source on the internet supporting your view, this is what actually happened and is verified by people I know who knew those who were there to experience it. Sure they used similar equipment to the Ukrainian army and this was not hard to do but Russians did attack and from inside of Russia. Whether that's called an invasion, well it was an incursion.
The 3rd paragraph though, this is nonsense. You must have not been to the Donbas, or you have a different definition of the area it covers. Heavy industry in Ukraine is in Kharkov and along the Dnieper River Zaporozhiye, Dnipro, Krivy Rog, Nikolaev etc... Kiev too, not only had and has the highest GDP per captia in Ukraine but is full of production. For example, aircraft which are still being built and exported. Train cars. And now, rearmament activities. Coal mines and slab steel aren't the economic engine that the Gosplan made you believe it is. Or did you think because Donetsk was the center of the mafia that meant the region was wealthy? Having "oligarchs" doesn't mean an area is wealthy.
There was definitely Russian attack on Ukraine's army in August of 2014 though. That part you can't explain away. They attacked from the rear from Illoviask all the way to the Azov coast. This is well documented and while you can point to any source on the internet supporting your view, this is what actually happened and is verified by people I know who knew those who were there to experience it. Sure they used similar equipment to the Ukrainian army and this was not hard to do but Russians did attack and from inside of Russia. Whether that's called an invasion, well it was an incursion
I studied that battle after watching it unfold daily almost hour by hour. It was a bunch of meathead militiamen not a one very bright that thought it would be a good idea to punch a spear head behind the city of Donetsk and cutting it off. Great idea if you have good logistics and a lot of manpower with a whole lot more combined arms support. The Russians did it at Korsun and at Stalingrad. These folks, volunteer battalions were way too ambitious and drove up a road hoping the Ukrainian army would follow them. Guess what, it didn't work out that way.
They got cut off and like the Finns did to the Russians in1939 they cut them off from their support by shutting down their logistics. Then they proceeded to beat them bloody. The rebels had control of every tactical aspect all across the AO. Their mobile forces reacted quickly and correctly the bypassed strong points didn't panic and prevented any reinforcements from following the main force. Another bunch of jolly fools decided to camp in the middle of a field and the guys left behind called down artillery on them in the middle of the night, wiping them out. These were the reinforcements the meatheads in Ilovaisk called for.
You see how that worked? The militias were utterly incompetent. It wasn't the Russians that beat them. That ship of fools sunk itself. I have no doubt that there was Russian citizens there and from what I heard also Russian servicemen who shall we say went on vacation from their regular units. There was no Russian army there. If there had been it would have been over much quicker than it was. In August of 08 the Russians destroyed the Georgian army in less than 48 hrs.
The fact that what you heard about this episode of asshattery from friends of friends twice removed tells me you really need to hit the books because you really place too much faith in western MSM.
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