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So your "common sense" is reduced to coal only?
While everything you have is shipped from half a world away but it's all fine.
Yeah, common sense tells me the rags I pay for made half a world away could be made here for a better all round deal. If Ukraine is paying $113 a ton for Pennsylvania coal when they could get it for $80 or even $50 a ton how does that make any sense at all?
You must not live in the Ukraine. That independence is coming with a high price attached to it. Unreasonably so. And if it is Donbas coal coming just a short distance who's keeping the profits?
Countries without liberal democracy are miserable places for the average citizen. We don't have authoritarian run press telling us lies to make us feel better about living in a poor country like Russia.
Really? How do you know that?
And you think your liberal media is telling you the truth? It will be very naive to think so.
Democracy sometimes works for some countries, and sometimes it doesn't work. Ukraine is an example where it simply didn't work - it basically borrowed the American style democracy, now the people don't have enough food for this winter. It is chaos after chaos.
I have no objection to democracy. It is working great for western countries. What I can't stand is the media claiming and many people foolishly believing it is the best system for every country in the world, and that it is always superior to any alternative, and that without democracy, those countries are doing something wrong and people are miserable. How did it work for Ukraine so far, don't tell me it is Russia's fault. It just proves one thing: western democracy does not work for Ukraine, no matter how much it wants to be like west Europe, it won't.
In 1996, China's per capita GDP was $600, India's was $400. In 2016, China's was 8100, India's as 1700. And China scores better in education, healthcare, women's rights, and even LGBT rights. And what exactly did democracy bring to India? Yes, they can vote for their PM and have more freedom of press, so what? When China's fast speed trains run at 350km/h all round the country, India's transportation is still stuck in the 1950s, with hundred's people clinging to the exterior of the trains which move at 80km or slower. Who are more miserable?
In 1996, China's per capital GDP was 12% of that of Brazil's. Today it is 95% of it (despite having 6 times the population) - in terms of PPP, it is higher than Brazil's, something unimaginable only 10 years ago. Crime rates in China is a fraction of that of Brazil. Both countries are corrupted politically to some extent (so is Italy and a lot of democratic countries), but do you prefer your standard of living improving as fast as China or democratic Brazil?
But the liberal media won't admit it. They will keep pushing their agenda, trying to force western value on everyone else, no matter how people suffer from the consequence.
If 12 years of living abroad teaches me anything, that is democracy is highly overrated, that it doesn't always work, not to mention to every nation, and countries should be left to select their own path, instead of listening to the west, pretending by copying them, they can become the west. (but again, don't ask the silly question "why do you live in western countries then“ since it is an illogical questions).
What does Ukraine should do? Stop listening the US etc., stop assuming democracy will make it rich and prosperous. Find a system that works best for Ukraine, not follow those that used to work for others.
I have no objection to democracy. It is working great for western countries. What I can't stand is the media claiming and many people foolishly believing it is the best system for every country in the world, and that it is always superior to any alternative, and that without democracy, those countries are doing something wrong and people are miserable. How did it work for Ukraine so far, don't tell me it is Russia's fault. It just proves one thing: western democracy does not work for Ukraine, no matter how much it wants to be like west Europe, it won't.
It damn well is the best system of all that has been tried. And it Ukrainians want it, they will make it work in their country as well. Nothing has been proven yet in a way or another.
It damn well is the best system of all that has been tried. And it Ukrainians want it, they will make it work in their country as well. Nothing has been proven yet in a way or another.
How is it proven to be the best system tried? People keep saying that and I fail to comprehend.
The sheer fact that a few democratic western countries are the richest/most prosperous doesn't prove your argument for two reasons
1) you need to show democratic countries collectively grew faster vis-a-vis those which are not (you also need to rule out other factors such as civil wars etc).
2) you need to explain the fact that a lot of countries are democracies yet are stuck in poverty for decades (India, Bangladesh etc).
You need to be logically rigorous before coming to your conclusion. The fact that the majority of rich countries are democracies is not sufficient proof that democracy is the best, because there is not a necessary causation relationship involved.
In social science it is pretty hard to prove a causation relationship, yet people can't wait for jump to conclusions (see, west Europe, America, Japan are democratic and most prosperous, therefore democracy brings prosperity - that's a very unscientific way of thinking).
How is it proven to be the best system tried? People keep saying that and I fail to comprehend.
The sheer fact that a few democratic western countries are the richest/most prosperous doesn't prove your argument for two reasons
1) you need to show democratic countries collectively grew faster vis-a-vis those which are not (you also need to rule out other factors such as civil wars etc).
2) you need to explain the fact that a lot of countries are democracies yet are stuck in poverty for decades (India, Bangladesh etc).
You need to be logically rigorous before coming to your conclusion. The fact that the majority of rich countries are democracies is not sufficient proof that democracy is the best, because there is not a necessary causation relationship involved.
In social science it is pretty hard to prove a causation relationship, yet people can't wait for jump to conclusions (see, west Europe, America, Japan are democratic and most prosperous, therefore democracy brings prosperity - that's a very unscientific way of thinking).
Russian asiatic despotism in its various incarnations, now with fascist, neo feudal and mafia twist, are not in a position to run in a political beauty contest. So if Ukraine will distance itself from the social model/country that brought so much death and horror to Ukrainian people it is doomed to be better off than it was.
Last edited by RememberMee; 10-22-2017 at 08:28 AM..
Yeah, common sense tells me the rags I pay for made half a world away could be made here for a better all round deal. If Ukraine is paying $113 a ton for Pennsylvania coal when they could get it for $80 or even $50 a ton how does that make any sense at all?
You must not live in the Ukraine. That independence is coming with a high price attached to it. Unreasonably so. And if it is Donbas coal coming just a short distance who's keeping the profits?
Comrade scrat doesnt shop much? All the junk in the american stores can be made in USA but it is most likely made in China. Ukrainian coal from Donbass had huge hidden costs of corruption, cuts to Donetsk mafioso running that region before Russian agression, very dangeous mining conditions, high death/traumatism rate among miners, and as a result large expenditures for pensions etc.. Around 2014 a typical mine in Donbass was like a closed mafia operation sucking in funds from central government, paying protection money to the regional bosses and using old fashioned ganster ways to deal with labor. It is quite possible that American coal is cheaper over all.
Comrade scrat doesnt shop much? All the junk in the american stores can be made in USA but it is most likely made in China. Ukrainian coal from Donbass had huge hidden costs of corruption, cuts to Donetsk mafioso running that region before Russian agression, very dangeous mining conditions, high death/traumatism rate among miners, and as a result large expenditures for pensions etc.. Around 2014 a typical mine in Donbass was like a closed mafia operation sucking in funds from central government, paying protection money to the regional bosses and using old fashioned ganster ways to deal with labor. It is quite possible that American coal is cheaper over all.
Tell that to your average Ukrainian trying to put food on the table with a heating or electric bill that just doubled.
Keep stroking it. Just remember it's not the real thing.
How is it proven to be the best system tried? People keep saying that and I fail to comprehend.
The sheer fact that a few democratic western countries are the richest/most prosperous doesn't prove your argument for two reasons
1) you need to show democratic countries collectively grew faster vis-a-vis those which are not (you also need to rule out other factors such as civil wars etc).
2) you need to explain the fact that a lot of countries are democracies yet are stuck in poverty for decades (India, Bangladesh etc).
You need to be logically rigorous before coming to your conclusion. The fact that the majority of rich countries are democracies is not sufficient proof that democracy is the best, because there is not a necessary causation relationship involved.
In social science it is pretty hard to prove a causation relationship, yet people can't wait for jump to conclusions (see, west Europe, America, Japan are democratic and most prosperous, therefore democracy brings prosperity - that's a very unscientific way of thinking).
Look at the GDPs of Belarus compared to Ukriane. 25% of the population 4 times the GDP.
And you think your liberal media is telling you the truth? It will be very naive to think so.
Democracy sometimes works for some countries, and sometimes it doesn't work. Ukraine is an example where it simply didn't work - it basically borrowed the American style democracy, now the people don't have enough food for this winter. It is chaos after chaos.
I have no objection to democracy. It is working great for western countries. What I can't stand is the media claiming and many people foolishly believing it is the best system for every country in the world, and that it is always superior to any alternative, and that without democracy, those countries are doing something wrong and people are miserable. How did it work for Ukraine so far, don't tell me it is Russia's fault. It just proves one thing: western democracy does not work for Ukraine, no matter how much it wants to be like west Europe, it won't.
In 1996, China's per capita GDP was $600, India's was $400. In 2016, China's was 8100, India's as 1700. And China scores better in education, healthcare, women's rights, and even LGBT rights. And what exactly did democracy bring to India? Yes, they can vote for their PM and have more freedom of press, so what? When China's fast speed trains run at 350km/h all round the country, India's transportation is still stuck in the 1950s, with hundred's people clinging to the exterior of the trains which move at 80km or slower. Who are more miserable?
In 1996, China's per capital GDP was 12% of that of Brazil's. Today it is 95% of it (despite having 6 times the population) - in terms of PPP, it is higher than Brazil's, something unimaginable only 10 years ago. Crime rates in China is a fraction of that of Brazil. Both countries are corrupted politically to some extent (so is Italy and a lot of democratic countries), but do you prefer your standard of living improving as fast as China or democratic Brazil?
But the liberal media won't admit it. They will keep pushing their agenda, trying to force western value on everyone else, no matter how people suffer from the consequence.
If 12 years of living abroad teaches me anything, that is democracy is highly overrated, that it doesn't always work, not to mention to every nation, and countries should be left to select their own path, instead of listening to the west, pretending by copying them, they can become the west. (but again, don't ask the silly question "why do you live in western countries then“ since it is an illogical questions).
What does Ukraine should do? Stop listening the US etc., stop assuming democracy will make it rich and prosperous. Find a system that works best for Ukraine, not follow those that used to work for others.
One of the best posts I have seen here yet. Well done.
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