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Old 03-22-2014, 08:11 AM
 
599 posts, read 555,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daywalk View Post
These problems exist only because the EU still hasn't reached the final stage of a political federation. Take Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Greece for examples. Currently their credit ratings are close to trash and investors have no confidence investing in their housing and infrastructure. They are also drowned by debt. However, under Federal Europe, its debt and poor debt rating will no longer be national and foreign investors will be willing to invest more in these regions since Federal Europe overall is more stable. In other words, these countries will no longer have to function as a national government if they are not competitive enough. Isn't that much more efficient in the long run? The country can simply do what it is strong in doing.
Well, some of the economic problems of those countries are due to belong to the Eurozone and not having enough sovereignty to control their own economy and currency.
Currently it is almost impossible to convince Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese and Greeks that to form part of this Superstate it's going to be good for them. And no, belong to a European federation will not make their problems solved, the situation will get worse as they would lose all their sovereignty and will be subject to French and German's interests, not to their own.
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Old 03-22-2014, 03:53 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,246 posts, read 19,240,834 times
Reputation: 8460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daywalk View Post
These problems exist only because the EU still hasn't reached the final stage of a political federation. Take Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Greece for examples. Currently their credit ratings are close to trash and investors have no confidence investing in their housing and infrastructure. They are also drowned by debt. However, under Federal Europe, its debt and poor debt rating will no longer be national and foreign investors will be willing to invest more in these regions since Federal Europe overall is more stable. In other words, these countries will no longer have to function as a national government if they are not competitive enough. Isn't that much more efficient in the long run? The country can simply do what it is strong in doing.
I think you are wrong. Forget about credit ratings, they don't reflect reality, but only investors' greed, mind games, blackmail etc. Those ratings are done by elitist organizations trying to blackmail countries into impoverishment. It's like with stock exchanges, they celebrate when companies announce they will fire a lot of employees.

Our housing and infrastructure are OK, there is no need for investment in that area. The credit rating refers to lending those countries money. In terms of debt etc. Portugal and Spain are not much worse than Germany.

Countries will no longer have to function as national governments if they are not competitive enough?! What a twisted view is that? Have to? Since when is it a burden to be a nation or national government? Countries and their people want to be nations and have national governments. That is why they fought wars for centuries, so that they can be independent.
Since when does competitiveness decide whether a country should be sovereign? If that were the case, 80% of the world's countries would cease to exist. But they don't because if they don't compete with the world, they don't need to be competitive. If exports are weak, it can be compensated by reducing imports and thus increasing self-sufficiency. By the way, Portugal has a positive trade balance...

Many of those economic psychopaths comprising the FMI, World Bank, Troika etc. are foolish enough to think one can force competitiveness by reducing wages. But that has already backfired big time in the south, and even within those organizations there is no agreement regarding the right way. Some have warned all along the austerity path is the wrong one.

Many people see the current situation very clearly, namely an effort to exploit the current economic problems in some countries to force that new type of imperialism on Europeans. Germany profits a lot from the problems in the south, they earn billions from the crisis. Each European country is highly egoistic, unlike in the US there is not sense of we are one people. Thus the few big countries try to force their ways on everyone else while they still can. What they don't mention for instance is that countries can get out of economic problems as sovereign nations as well. Not too long ago Germany for instance was considered the sick patient of Europe. And they turned things around without giving up their sovereignty. That was way before the Lisbon treaty and all that crap.
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:11 PM
 
2,187 posts, read 1,120,109 times
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I think it all makes sense now that parts of the UK, Italy, and Spain will breakaway, so it allows more states with the EU internally… and all will be integrated to the European Federation.

Crimea, Scotland
“Catalonia, Scotland, the Basque Country, Wales and Flanders are distinct nations with a long history behind and a strong will to govern themselves,” Xavier Solano, former representative of the Catalan Government in the U.K., told CNBC.

“Perhaps not all of them will bid for independence, however it seems reasonable to believe that some of them may think that their future would be better in their own hands. I am convinced that EU internal borders will be re-shaped by the democratic will of the people.”
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:18 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
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Not necessarily only internal EU borders, because as soon as such a province splits from a EU country, it is automatically outside the EU. It would have to apply for membership again as a separate country.
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Old 03-23-2014, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Minsk, Belarus
670 posts, read 728,157 times
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I don't even think that those parts of the UK, Italy and Spain will break away...
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:09 AM
 
2,187 posts, read 1,120,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmel View Post
I don't even think that those parts of the UK, Italy and Spain will break away...
89% of Venetian citizens voted last week to be independent from Italy.
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:24 AM
 
Location: Minsk, Belarus
670 posts, read 728,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daywalk View Post
89% of Venetian citizens voted last week to be independent from Italy.
So what? Does anybody care about that? I think their referendum was not legitimate and the results won't be accepted anyway.

P.S. If Veneto becomes independent -- which I don't believe in -- I will add it to my list of visited countries)
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:57 AM
 
2,187 posts, read 1,120,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I think you are wrong. Forget about credit ratings, they don't reflect reality, but only investors' greed, mind games, blackmail etc. Those ratings are done by elitist organizations trying to blackmail countries into impoverishment. It's like with stock exchanges, they celebrate when companies announce they will fire a lot of employees.

Our housing and infrastructure are OK, there is no need for investment in that area. The credit rating refers to lending those countries money. In terms of debt etc. Portugal and Spain are not much worse than Germany.

Countries will no longer have to function as national governments if they are not competitive enough?! What a twisted view is that? Have to? Since when is it a burden to be a nation or national government? Countries and their people want to be nations and have national governments. That is why they fought wars for centuries, so that they can be independent.
Since when does competitiveness decide whether a country should be sovereign? If that were the case, 80% of the world's countries would cease to exist. But they don't because if they don't compete with the world, they don't need to be competitive. If exports are weak, it can be compensated by reducing imports and thus increasing self-sufficiency. By the way, Portugal has a positive trade balance...

Many of those economic psychopaths comprising the FMI, World Bank, Troika etc. are foolish enough to think one can force competitiveness by reducing wages. But that has already backfired big time in the south, and even within those organizations there is no agreement regarding the right way. Some have warned all along the austerity path is the wrong one.

Many people see the current situation very clearly, namely an effort to exploit the current economic problems in some countries to force that new type of imperialism on Europeans. Germany profits a lot from the problems in the south, they earn billions from the crisis. Each European country is highly egoistic, unlike in the US there is not sense of we are one people. Thus the few big countries try to force their ways on everyone else while they still can. What they don't mention for instance is that countries can get out of economic problems as sovereign nations as well. Not too long ago Germany for instance was considered the sick patient of Europe. And they turned things around without giving up their sovereignty. That was way before the Lisbon treaty and all that crap.
"Portugal and Spain are not much worse than Germany."
That statement further strengthens my point because the debt owed between European countries will no longer be external.
If you add the external debt of each EU countries…. the resulting figure is astronomical!: List of countries by external debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, the EU as a whole/single country only has an external debt of:
$15.5 trillion (31 December 2012)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2079.html

Instead of thinking it as an imperialism, you might as well treat it as a more efficient way of running things. The failure of the governments of some EU countries to run their country well economically/politically will affect the rest of Europe and the rest of the world. However, under a single European superstate, their problems won't affect the world as much and they will also receive more assistance from other stronger regions in the superstate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Not necessarily only internal EU borders, because as soon as such a province splits from a EU country, it is automatically outside the EU. It would have to apply for membership again as a separate country.
You're right, but they will re-enter EU one day as the original parent country can't exclude them forever.
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Old 03-23-2014, 05:00 AM
 
2,187 posts, read 1,120,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmel View Post
So what? Does anybody care about that? I think their referendum was not legitimate and the results won't be accepted anyway.

P.S. If Veneto becomes independent -- which I don't believe in -- I will add it to my list of visited countries)
I personally do hope Italy to remain status quo.
I have been trying to search for news about Rome's reaction to the referendum in the news but can't find anything. I was hoping maybe Rome can grant Veneto more autonomy. There are 20 regions in Italy and 5 are autonomous regions and 15 (including Veneto) are just ordinary. Maybe if Veneto can get more autonomy and pay tax at reasonable rate then it may preclude Veneto from gaining independence.
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Old 03-23-2014, 07:00 AM
 
599 posts, read 555,767 times
Reputation: 379
Anyway, all those separatist movements reinforce the idea that a European superstate is unthinkable.

If those regions are fighting (some are doing for centuries) to be independent and be themselves to decide their fate, once they get independence they will not give up in favor of a European federation.

If Catalans want independence from Spain because decisions affecting Catalonia are decided in Madrid, which is 300 kilometers away, despite being one of the most powerful regions and that has more strength in the decision-making that are taken for the whole country, they will not be much happier to be a normal region of a European superstate, neither among the most populated nor the richest, and decisions taken in Brussels, which is 2000 km away from Catalonia.

Last edited by victus; 03-23-2014 at 07:57 AM..
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