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How can you tell you have some French/German?
It could be Norman...the "Fitz".
I guess that ancient Hibernia was unprotected, so the so-called Frisians also settled in some areas.
I had a dna test at 23andMe which picks recent dna up to a 500 year period so not ancient. Yes it could quite possibly be Norman as 23andMe doesn't differentiate between French/German. I'm trying to go through my family tree but I don't know if I will find anything foreign as I've only been able to go back to the late 1700s on one line and early 1800s on others. My great grandmother had a Scottish name but I haven't found any Norman names yet. I don't know my maternal grandfather's parents names yet so that could hold some clues. My married name is Norman and my daughter has more French/German than me so it could be through the Norman line for her but the biggest chunk of French/German in her dna is from me. I'm getting my brother's dna tested so I'll know the y-dna. I bet most people would find some surprises in their dna if they got it done. It's a bit addictive once you start on that road though. I do think a paper trail is best if you can find it.
I'm fully Irish as far as I can go back which is the late 17th century and I don't think my results would be unusual. I'm actually closer to North Dutch than English so I don't know why that is.
Correct, there is nothing unusual about that. Both the British and Irish overlap well with the Dutch. Larger genetical tests done in 2002 much earlier shows that genetically there was virtually no difference between in the Y-chromosome sequences between Central English and Northern Dutch (Frisian) populations.
Another study on autosomal Dna level done in 2008 in the Netherlands shows again that Ireland as a whole overall to be cluster closer with the Dutch than the British themselves.
The genetical map below show perfectly that Ireland(I.E.) as a whole to cluster closer to Netherlands(NL) than the United Kingdom(U.K.), and shows almost no really particular overlapping with France, this is regardless whether you are dark/light-haired. http://blog.widmann.org.uk/wp-conten.../geneurope.jpg
There is a false perception by others that want to put the Irish as Southern Europeans/even as Mediterraneans. Ireland is located in Northern Europe!
Ashkenazim have a high frequency of non-Levantine admixtures! Obviously they could look quite European. However there is a higher frequency of Middle-Eastern genetic markers than with the British and Irish who are the northwesternmost Europeans! By using dark-haired Britons doesn't mean they are close to Ashkenaz.
I am sorry to tell you that you are wrong, when you quote that Ashkenaz overlaps with British and Irish people. I think once Traveller 86 mentioned it too. Well these are facts:
In genetic epidermiology, a genome-wide association study (GWA study or GWAS). is an examination of all or most of the genes (the genome) of different individuals of a particular species to see how much the genes vary from individual to individual.
a 2006 study on autosomalDna level by Sedin et al.The results showed "a consistent and reproducible distinction between 'Northern' and 'Southern' European population groups". Most Northern, Central, and Eastern Europeans (Finns, Swedes, English, Irish, Germans, and Ukrainians) showed >90% in the 'Northern' population group, while most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Spaniards) showed >85% in the 'Southern' group.Both Ashkenazi Jews as well as Sephardic Jews showed >85% membership in the "Southern" group. Referring to the Jews clustering with southern Europeans, the authors state the results were "consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups". So overall Jews are more Southern Europeans than Northern Europeans regardless of hair/eye colours, but they have much higher European admixtures than other Middle-Easterners.
A 2007 study by Bauchet et al. found that Ashkenazi Jews were most closely clustered with Arabic North African populations when compared to Global population, and in the European structure analysis, they share similarities only with Greeks and Southern Italians, reflecting their east Mediterranean origins.
You use British as an example, but I'm sure that's because a larger number of British people are well known internationally. I don't think British look more Jewish than other Europeans at similar latitude, or that there is a British connection in appearance that's unique. On top of it, the similarities with many are merely metrics. Caucasians can be very similar across Eurasia if pigment variables are eliminated. With most of the examples you've provided, a novice from another area of the world might see no substantial difference. But among Europeans and Jews they ably see the very subtle differences in facial feature and expression in actual study tests.
Jews in general more resemble Italians who can frequently have light eyes and lighter features but mostly do not. Statistically most Ashkanazi are dark, and are mostly foreign looking to northern and Central European appearances. Don't get hyped up by picked light examples the same anyone can find of any southern Europeans. Ashkanazi often exceed Italians and can look genuine Middle Eastern. Also as far as Gabriel Mann, you should always research before you cut and paste what you see on other forums or any site.
Ashkenazim have a high frequency of non-Levantine admixtures! Obviously they could look quite European. However there is a higher frequency of Middle-Eastern genetic markers than with the British and Irish who are the northwesternmost Europeans! By using dark-haired Britons doesn't mean they are close to Ashkenaz.
Yes exactly why to me it is interesting and the rather remind me in a sort of similar sense of how Eastern Europeans for example could fit in some Western or Central countries.
Ashkenazi people can sort look sort of Middle Eastern but more likely Near Eastern/Caucasus and then to a extent Levantine.
It is not just about being dark haired to me but about facial features.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saxonwold
I am sorry to tell you that you are wrong, when you quote that Ashkenaz overlaps with British and Irish people. I think once Traveller 86 mentioned it too. Well these are facts:
In genetic epidermiology, a genome-wide association study (GWA study or GWAS). is an examination of all or most of the genes (the genome) of different individuals of a particular species to see how much the genes vary from individual to individual.
a 2006 study on autosomalDna level by Sedin et al.The results showed "a consistent and reproducible distinction between 'Northern' and 'Southern' European population groups". Most Northern, Central, and Eastern Europeans (Finns, Swedes, English, Irish, Germans, and Ukrainians) showed >90% in the 'Northern' population group, while most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Spaniards) showed >85% in the 'Southern' group.Both Ashkenazi Jews as well as Sephardic Jews showed >85% membership in the "Southern" group. Referring to the Jews clustering with southern Europeans, the authors state the results were "consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups". So overall Jews are more Southern Europeans than Northern Europeans regardless of hair/eye colours, but they have much higher European admixtures than other Middle-Easterners.
A 2007 study by Bauchet et al. found that Ashkenazi Jews were most closely clustered with Arabic North African populations when compared to Global population, and in the European structure analysis, they share similarities only with Greeks and Southern Italians, reflecting their east Mediterranean origins.
Believe it or not but I have seen Ashkenazi that I would not of known to be Jewish without them telling me otherwise.
Although the Ashkenazim look more closer to Central and Eastern Europeans.
Nice looking facts.
If I had to put anyone in the Northern group (it would be Irish, English, Swedes, Finns), for the Western (it would be French, Belgians and Dutch), for the Central (Germans, Swiss, Hungarians, some Italians and Ashkenazim), for the Eastern (Ukrainians, Poles, Serbs and Ashkenazim), finally the Southern group (Spanish, Portuguese, Greeks, some Italians and Sephardic Jews).
Sephardic Jews look much much more Mediterranean and Middle Eastern/North African than Ashkenazim folk on average.
Even Middle Eastern and North African people (such as Levantines, Maghrebians, Assyrians, Kurds, and Iranians) look quite Mediterranean on average compared to Ashkenazis.
You use British as an example, but I'm sure that's because a larger number of British people are well known internationally. I don't think British look more Jewish than other Europeans at similar latitude, or that there is a British connection in appearance that's unique. On top of it, the similarities with many are merely metrics. Caucasians can be very similar across Eurasia if pigment variables are eliminated. With most of the examples you've provided, a novice from another area of the world might see no substantial difference. But among Europeans and Jews they ably see the very subtle differences in facial feature and expression in actual study tests.
Jews in general more resemble Italians who can frequently have light eyes and lighter features but mostly do not. Statistically most Ashkanazi are dark, and are mostly foreign looking to northern and Central European appearances. Don't get hyped up by picked light examples the same anyone can find of any southern Europeans. Ashkanazi often exceed Italians and can look genuine Middle Eastern. Also as far as Gabriel Mann, you should always research before you cut and paste what you see on other forums or any site.
Fair points.
Off course most British would not look Jewish.
Some traits can be share between both which will happen at times.
Caucasians will look similar because they are obviously Eurasians.
Ashkenazi Jews do look similar to Italians but also to French, Eastern Europeans and Balkanites.
Ashkenazis are not as dark or swarthy as Sephardic Jews who are much more darker.
Even Iberians and most Greeks are more darker and Mediterranean than Ashkenazim, French, Eastern Europeans, Balkan people and even mainland Italians.
Only light examples are most found in South French, Balkanians and most Italians.
Ashkenazi will look like Middle Eastern Israelis and some Jordanians at most.
I know a lot of British people use self-tanning products. I not saying a majority of people have a Mediterranean appearance. I also know a lot of Germans have dark hair and dark eyes. Yet I stating that they would not look out of place among the local ethnic people in some Mediterranean countries.
I know most British and Germans have light coloured eyes. Plus a majority of them have brown hair. Yet for ethnic British people and Germans a very large number have blond hair as a child and it darkens when they get older and usually turns dark blonde, light brown and dark brown.
Yet light blonde hair is rare among British people when they are adults. There are more red headed people among ethnic British people than people with natural light blonde hair. Light Natural blonde hair is also rare among adult Germans as well.
Yet with the Germans I have encountered I found more of them are blonde than ethnic British people. Yet of course more ethnic British people have red hair than Germans or even Scandinavians.
Light blonde hair isnt uncommon in north-west germany. Its by no means the majority but neither is particularly rare. Also many people have some hair color which isnt dark or light blond but standard/middle blonde.
Germans are more likely to be blonde than brits, specially among adults. The combination of darkbrown/black hair and light eyes is much more common among brits.
The Most commpn hair color among the germans is lightbrown/darkblond. On the other hand, Most brits have chesnut colored(mid to light brown) hair and/or quite dark brown. There are many areas across the UK where the prevalent hair color among locals is quite close to black.
I think the dna plots disagree with you. Most white americans have some form of British Isles ancestry, specially Scotch-Irish American or plain English ancestry, which are vastly underreported.
I see here in spain Americans all the time, you can tell them apart from europeans due to their broader physiques and clothing (which in my opinion isnt good), but If they have someone who is closer/less different to them Its the British Isles people. The german people are hardly confused with americans here. GErman people have stronger Jaws/harder features and are taller than your average anglo broad.
AYes there can be a very blond aussie found here and there , But I was speaking as a group, aussies arent very blond people, most have dark hair (not even lightbrown).
You are clueless of what you're talking about. There are millions of Americans of Scandinavian descent as well, etc.. Try to be more specific next time. The facts are the largest single ethnic group in the U.S. is the German-American which has a population of 50 million people! This is higher than the whole population of your country, Spain! So please check your facts. Only if you combine all the British Isles ethnicities(English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish/Scotch-Irish, Irish), then obviously you would have a higher number. Altogether 86% of white Americans are of northwestern and central European ancestry and 14% of southeastern European, white Hispanic, Latino. I am of eastern English and central Dutch ancestry, my hair colour is red, eye colour is greenish blue.
Concerning White Australians, the English-Australian is the single largest ethnic group and there are plenty of blonde-haired Australians, and the most common hair color is light/medium brown not dark brown, but it's common. Dark brown hair is the predominant in colour in your country and other Southern European countries such as Portugal, Italy, Greece.
Light blonde hair isnt uncommon in north-west germany. Its by no means the majority but neither is particularly rare. Also many people have some hair color which isnt dark or light blond but standard/middle blonde.
Germans are more likely to be blonde than brits, specially among adults. The combination of darkbrown/black hair and light eyes is much more common among brits.
The Most commpn hair color among the germans is lightbrown/darkblond. On the other hand, Most brits have chesnut colored(mid to light brown) hair and/or quite dark brown. There are many areas across the UK where the prevalent hair color among locals is quite close to black.
The most common hair among both the Germans and the British is brown. Light blonde hair is not the dominant hair colour in Britain/Germany. In Germany, the northernmost regions are much lighter than those in the southermost parts. While in Britain the easternmost regions are lighter than the westernmost regions. The difference between eastern and western Britain in pigmentation is much smaller than that between northern and southern Germany!
The following genetic map depicts perfectly the distribution in indigenous European populations of the frequencies of 3 genes involved in light hair and light eyes. They are obviously more common in Northern than Southern European population. http://unsafeharbour.files.wordpress...ationgenes.jpg
Light blonde hair isnt uncommon in north-west germany. Its by no means the majority but neither is particularly rare. Also many people have some hair color which isnt dark or light blond but standard/middle blonde.
Germans are more likely to be blonde than brits, specially among adults. The combination of darkbrown/black hair and light eyes is much more common among brits.
The Most commpn hair color among the germans is lightbrown/darkblond. On the other hand, Most brits have chesnut colored(mid to light brown) hair and/or quite dark brown. There are many areas across the UK where the prevalent hair color among locals is quite close to black.
- Unfortunately dark brown hair is not the dominant hair color among Brits/Irish. For example among the Irish who traditionally are more similar in hair colouring to the west Britons and overall were seen to be darker than the Brits in hair colour. Nevertheless the Irish Medical Journal of Science reports that over 60% of the Irish have hair color which is not dark brown and at the same time 80% have blue and green eyes. So they are not darker than Germans!
- Secondly the combination of dark hair,light eyes, very fair skin is obviously more common in Northern Europe than in any other part of Europe. There are many Scandinavians, Germans, Dutch, who have dark hair,light eyes, very fair skin as well than they would Spaniards/Greeks.
- The most common combination in Spain is dark brown hair and brown eyes in most of Spain as many as 77% have brown eyes.
Distribution map of eye colour in the Spanish population - dark grey(brown eyes), striped grey(blue eyes), light grey ( intermediate colour), is similar to other Southern Europeans.
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