Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The economic growth in Spain was terribly poor when Franco and his army were in charge with no foreign aid or guidelines. They were useless and uncultured bureaucrats. There was severe food shortage until the early 50's
Oh yes ? and did you know that France and the UK as well as Communist Eastern Europe was rationed until 1950, and the Soviet Union well into the Sixties, with special stores for the privileged of the nomenklatura ? was it also Franco's fault?
and do you really believe that I'm a fascist because I happen to have good memories of the late Franco regime (1962-1975) who allowed a huge modernization of the countries because through a new generation of new , progessive technocrats and economists who formed the backbone of the new Spanish democracy under Juan Carlos? you certainly can't deny democratic transition in Spain was a tremendous success (one spoke of the "Spanish miracle") !
The Spain of the 60's was no longer the Spain of the 40's and although the Caudillo was nominally in power, most of his core ideology was already dead. I remember spending holidays in Ibiza with hippies in 1970, one had hardly the impression to be in a repressive state.[/quote]
----
Congratulations, you know more about recent Spanish history that most Spanish.
Yes, we had ration cards until 1952 (I don't remember them) and people were forced to buy in the black market. The regime was autocratic and corporativists until 1959.
In 1959, "the stabilization plan" with brilliant economists allowed a growth of 20 percent each year.....
So for the first time in history, Spain had a "middle class" with an apartment or two in property, a car, a washing machine and a television.
Yes, by the 60's nobody cared much about Falange and Movimiento, since civil society was far more important. Franco's motto was "grow and prosper and forget about politics".
The democratic transition was devised by Franco (he told so to Mitchell, Nixon's envoy back in 1969). Franco said to Mitchell; "when I die, Spain will have to suffer the plague of drugs, pornography and crime, but Spain will survive and we will be what you want (a democracy)".
Franco always was saying..."at least now most of Spanish are middle class, so they won't kill each other again for trifle things".
I agree with you 100%. I also visited spain in the early 70's and it was a joy. The people seem very happy, talkative and the economy was stable; did not see homelesness nor people begging. Lately Spain seems poorer, people seem more preocupied, there are less jobs; it seems Spain was better off before.
----
Diet
Spain was the tenth industrial power in 1975. I used to visit London a lot back then, and Harrods was always packed with Spanish since everything was dirt cheap compared to Spain. Spain had so much foreign currency in their vaults that they were forced to devalue the peseta every couple of months.
Not only that, we had no oil crisis because Franco was a good friend of all Arab leaders, and he was also a friend of Israel, a good friend of Americans....had trade relations with the USSR....etc...
Congratulations, you know more about recent Spanish history that most Spanish.
Yes, we had ration cards until 1952 (I don't remember them) and people were forced to buy in the black market. The regime was autocratic and corporativists until 1959.
In 1959, "the stabilization plan" with brilliant economists allowed a growth of 20 percent each year.....
Thanks to foreign money and guidelines.
So for the first time in history, Spain had a "middle class" with an apartment or two in property, a car, a washing machine and a television.
No middle class before Franco? Most of the parties in the Second Republic were distinctly aimed at the middle classes and laicism was a mostly middle class movement.
No TV in Spain -or virtually anywhere else- in the 30's, true, and washing machines were different (less buttons, which is good), but a house/apartments or a car... Yes, many people had those.
Yes, by the 60's nobody cared much about Falange and Movimiento, since civil society was far more important. Franco's motto was "grow and prosper and forget about politics".
What could Franco say? You'd better forget about politics because you wouldn't be able to do anything about them anyway, and to top it all off you'd get in very serious trouble.
Civil society, agreed, is always the most important thing. Which is why civil rights are the single most important trait a society can have.
Not true, my great uncle was a "representante del Tercio Familiar" and he was freely elected by voters. He exercised his position from 1964 to 1971. Later, he joined UCD. Politics were different, of course, but Mayors and Concejales during Francoism were always from the town and most did a good work. In fact, the ones that are still alive are widely respected by all.
There were some scandals during the "estraperlo" days (1948) but the Mayor was ousted by the Civil Governor.
The Delegado del Tercio Sindical and Representative of the FET-JONS was my neighbour, he was a veteran of the Blue Division (he was called the "russian killer") and a very pleasant fellow and the nicest person you could ever find. He managed a gambling "speakeasy" and later, a little bar and he always helped everybody. His three son and her daugter are now members of PSC.
In this town we have always helped each other, also during the war. Another great uncle was an Anarchist leader during the war and he saved four priests and about seven people.
Yes, there were "politics", but a different type of politics, it worked though friendship, favours, godfathers (fadrÃ), "patricios", etc, etc.
Not true, my great uncle was a "representante del Tercio Familiar" and he was freely elected by voters. He exercised his position from 1964 to 1971. Later, he joined UCD.
OMG so??? ... Why don't you explain what the Tercio Familiar was and what use it had, etc? I know what it is (so don't lie ) but please, elaborate. Note: Cuba has an equivalent system of local administration.
Not true, my great uncle was a "representante del Tercio Familiar" and he was freely elected by voters. He exercised his position from 1964 to 1971. Later, he joined UCD.
btw "voters" were the male heads of the household in each town.
Not true, my great uncle was a "representante del Tercio Familiar" and he was freely elected by voters. He exercised his position from 1964 to 1971. Later, he joined UCD. Politics were different, of course, but Mayors and Concejales during Francoism were always from the town and most did a good work. In fact, the ones that are still alive are widely respected by all.
The Tercio Familiar. We'll talk about that later, I guess.
There were some scandals during the "estraperlo" days (1948) but the Mayor was ousted by the Civil Governor.
The Civil Governor, who was appointed by the regime, appointed (and ousted) the mayor.No elections here, naturally. Not even by the locally prized male heads of household!
The Delegado del Tercio Sindical and Representative of the FET-JONS was my neighbour, he was a veteran of the Blue Division (he was called the "russian killer") and a very pleasant fellow and the nicest person you could ever find. He managed a gambling "speakeasy" and later, a little bar and he always helped everybody. His three son and her daugter are now members of PSC.
The Blue Division aided the nazis during World War II. I'm sure he was very nice, anyway.
In this town we have always helped each other, also during the war. Another great uncle was an Anarchist leader during the war and he saved four priests and about seven people.
I'm glad your town managed to keep it relatively civilized. But, in spite of that, the falangist uprising and subsequent war in Spain were awful (wars always are) and what came later was a disgrace. Ok, that's an opinion: it was a dictatorship where thousands of people were oppressed and murdered. Not my cup of tea.
No middle class before Franco? Most of the parties in the Second Republic were distinctly aimed at the middle classes and laicism was a mostly middle class movement.
No TV in Spain -or virtually anywhere else- in the 30's, true, and washing machines were different (less buttons, which is good), but a house/apartments or a car... Yes, many people had those.
-----------
No MIDDLE CLASS during the Republic. You had the HAVE and the HAVE NOTS. The Caciques and the Muertos de Hambre. In fact, literacy rates were ridiculous. Take a look at the statistics.
Almost no party in the Second Republic was aimed at the Middle Classes. You had CEDA (Rich and conservative), Partido Socialista (Marxist-Leninist, working class), Anarchists, etc, etc... The only parties that were vaguely related to Middle Classes was ERC in Catalonia and PNV in the Basque Country.
Not many people had apartments, since most people lived in rented properties during the Republic. The philosophy that "cada españolito con su pisito" (each little spanish with his little flat) is Falangista and came afterwards. Franco crushed Falange in 1942, but allowed their promotion of "official protection houses" or "casas baratas".
Almost no cars in Spain until SEAT in 1955, not because there was no meoney, but because it was impossible to import them. No washing machines, no freezers until the 60's.
Spain was the tenth industrial power in 1975. I used to visit London a lot back then, and Harrods was always packed with Spanish since everything was dirt cheap compared to Spain. Spain had so much foreign currency in their vaults that they were forced to devalue the peseta every couple of months.
Not only that, we had no oil crisis because Franco was a good friend of all Arab leaders, and he was also a friend of Israel, a good friend of Americans....had trade relations with the USSR....etc...
The USSR was the industrial superpower (see a post I wrote where I argue that the USSR did it all by itself, unlike Spain). So?
And most Spaniards never travelled abroad during Franco. They scarcely ever travel from region to region. Please, the newly-married couples' typical honeymoon trip was to the nearest seaside resort within Spain, to Andalusia or Santander if you were from Madrid, etc.
Naturally, the privileged few could afford trips to London to buy clothes, furniture of have an abortion. But the vast majority of Spaniards in London were working there as waiters, not visiting (like nowadays).
I'm glad your town managed to keep it relatively civilized. But, in spite of that, the falangist uprising and subsequent war in Spain were awful (wars always are) and what came later was a disgrace. Ok, that's an opinion: it was a dictatorship where thousands of people were oppressed and murdered. Not my cup of tea.
------
During all the Francoist period (1939-1975), no one in this town was killed because of political reasons.
Many had to flee when Franco came because they had "crimes of blood" (they killed priests, rich people, etc) during the war.
One of them was my great uncle, the anarchist. He had the strange theory that priests could fly, so he used to throw them from bell towers. His theory was wrong. I must have inherited his aversion to priests because I can't stand them.
During the war (1936-1939), 85 people were killed by "Republicans". Six priests, churchgoers, industrialists, bread makers, landowners, etc. People here still talk about them.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
) but please, elaborate. Note: Cuba has an equivalent system of local administration.
