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Old 07-18-2014, 06:59 PM
Location: State of Transition
72,787 posts, read 64,258,962 times
Reputation: 68607


hahaha! People, tangle with erasure on matters of history at your own risk.

Pass the popcorn?

Old 07-18-2014, 07:18 PM
2,344 posts, read 3,801,718 times
Reputation: 2191
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Are you even remotely familiar with something like "General plan Ost?"
Are you even remotely aware of Hitler's views regarding Russia that he expressed in "Mein Kampf" or his words like

"Everything I undertake is directed against Russia. If the West is too stupid and too blind to comprehend this I will be forced to reach an understanding with the Russians, turn and strike the West, and then after their defeat turn back against the Soviet Union with my collected strength. I need the Ukraine and with that no one can starve us out as they did in the last war." [SIZE=2][5][/SIZE]

Generalplan Ost - General Plan East

Because if you were familiar with any of that, you wouldn't be making such speculations as "instead of joining with Britain and France..." (do you even know by the way that Soviets were trying to negotiate a deal with England and France, before they've made pact with Hitler?)
So obviously Russians were aware somewhat of what was going on behind the scene, and while they were watching the "dance" of Western powers with Hitler ( remember Munich's agreement that came BEFORE Molotov-Ribbentrop's?) they've quietly decided to take as much buffer territories as they could, bracing themselves for the worst, while hoping for the best.
And the Soviets asked Poland's permission to station troops in the country to repel a German attack, a request Poland refused along with the refusal to allow Soviet troops on Poland's territory at all even if Poland is attacked. Due to this, the Soviets entered into the famous Molotov-Ribbentrop. The Soviets were already wary of Poland's intentions given the Polish 1919 invasion of the USSR (and the centuries long disputes between the Poles and Russian Empire in general).
Old 07-18-2014, 07:22 PM
2,253 posts, read 1,943,636 times
Reputation: 1507
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Oh I dunno... try to read something like this for starters.

How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power | World news | The Guardian

I've tried to make the long story short, because of course it was more than just helping hand of Prescott Bush; the lavish loans to Germany that helped to rebuild her war machine were coming from the US much earlier of course, so meet someone like Hans Von Seeckt for example, who has re-built German army already in the twenties, the very army that Germany went to war with in 1939. It was only a matter of time when this army went under the command of someone like Hitler.

Hans von Seeckt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Did I mention that it has been done with the help of American loans, and that was already AFTER American bankers have profiteered on their European allies after the WWI.
So if your "learning of history" comes from regurgitated dogmas of something like Heritage Foundation or say Hoover Institution, you are missing out on a quite a few things.

Good one

Dozens and dozens of countries and business people were doing business with the Nazi's before WWII, as well as Japan, Italy and the Soviet Union. If you're looking for a cause to WWII, look at the horrible treaty of Versailles, which punished Germany so severely, it wrecked it's entire economy. Thus allowing a piece of dog excrement like Hitler to rise to power.

The German army was not rebuilt till the 30's (in violation of the treaty of Versailles). They then tested their war machine during the Spanish civil war aiding Franco, another DICtator. Are you going to blame the Spanish Civil war on the US too?

BTW - when trying to make a point, you might want to reconsider citing wikipedia and The Guardian as sources. Next time try scholarly resources, or maybe just go to the library. Sounds like you could use the trip.
Old 07-18-2014, 08:27 PM
13,831 posts, read 12,626,972 times
Reputation: 6464
Originally Posted by RecentlyMoved View Post
Good one

Dozens and dozens of countries and business people were doing business with the Nazi's before WWII, as well as Japan, Italy and the Soviet Union.
As I've already said, there was more to American loans and financing Germany military than just "Hitler's times." It goes further back in history, in post WWI period and "doing business" and "financing" is not one and the same thing. I thought that as American, you should know the difference.

If you're looking for a cause to WWII, look at the horrible treaty of Versailles, which punished Germany so severely, it wrecked it's entire economy. Thus allowing a piece of dog excrement like Hitler to rise to power.

Here we go;

"My first question at the Treasury of an international
character was our American debt. At the end of the war, the
European Allies owed the United States about ten thousand
million dollars, of which four thousand million were owed by
Britain. On the other hand, we were owed by the other
Allies, principally by Russia, seven thousand million dollars.
In 1920, Britain had proposed an all-round cancellation of
war debts. This involved, on paper at least, a sacrifice by us
of about seven hundred and fifty million pounds sterling. As
the value of money has halved since then, the figures could
in fact be doubled. No settlement was reached. On August
1, 1922, in Mr. Lloyd George’s day, the Balfour Note had
declared that Great Britain would collect no more from her
debtors, Ally or former enemy, than the United States
collected from her. This was a worthy statement. In
December of 1922, a British delegation, under Government,
visited Washington; and as the result Britain agreed to pay
the whole of her war debt to the United States at a rate of
interest reduced from five to three and one-half per cent,
irrespective of receipts from her debtors.

This agreement caused deep concern in many instructed
quarters, and to no one more than the Prime Minister
quarters, and to no one more than the Prime Minister
himself. It imposed upon Great Britain, much impoverished
by the war in which, as she was to do once again, she had
fought from the first day to the last, the payment of thirty-
five millions sterling a year for sixty-two years. The basis of
this agreement was considered, not only in this island, but
by many disinterested financial authorities in America, to be
a severe and improvident condition for both borrower and
lender. “They hired the money, didn’t they?” said President
Coolidge. This laconic statement was true, but not
exhaustive. Payments between countries which take the
form of the transfer of goods and services, or still more of
their fruitful exchange, are not only just but beneficial.
Payments which are only the arbitrary, artificial transmission
across the exchange of such very large sums as arise in
war finance cannot fail to derange the whole process of
world economy. This is equally true whether the payments
are exacted from an ally who shared the victory and bore
much of the brunt or from a defeated enemy nation. The
enforcement of the Baldwin-Coolidge debt settlement is a
recognisable factor in the economic collapse which was
presently to overwhelm the world, to prevent its recovery
and inflame its hatreds.
The service of the American debt was particularly difficult to
render to a country which had newly raised its tariffs to
even higher limits, and had already buried in its vaults
nearly all the gold yet dug up. Similar but lighter settlements
were imposed upon the other European Allies. The first
result was that everyone put the screw on Germany. I was
in full accord with the policy of the Balfour Note of 1922,
and had argued for it at the time; and when I became
Chancellor of the Exchequer I reiterated it, and acted
accordingly. I thought that if Great Britain were thus made
not only the debtor, but the debt-collector of the United
States, the unwisdom of the debt collection would become
apparent at Washington. However, no such reaction
followed. Indeed the argument was resented. The United
States continued to insist upon its annual repayments from
Great Britain.
It, therefore, fell to me to make settlements with all our
Allies which, added to the German payments which we had
already scaled down, would enable us to produce the thirty-
five millions annually for the American Treasury. Severest
pressure was put upon Germany, and a vexatious régime
of international control of German internal affairs was
imposed. The United States received from England three
payments in full, and these were extorted from Germany by
indemnities on the modified Dawes scale."

Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm.

Didn't I mention profiteering of American bankers on European allies?

I always knew where my nearest library was by the way, do you know where is yours?
Old 07-18-2014, 08:31 PM
13,831 posts, read 12,626,972 times
Reputation: 6464
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
hahaha! People, tangle with erasure on matters of history at your own risk.

Pass the popcorn?

Ruth, I don't consider myself a big specialist, but I've met with attempts to re-write history of the WWII in Russia (!) out of all places, so I HAD to dig you see...
Old 07-18-2014, 09:31 PM
2,253 posts, read 1,943,636 times
Reputation: 1507

Quoting Churchill's Gathering Storm proves Americans were active underwriting the reconstruction of many European nations after World War I; this proves American investment in order to do what Americans always want to do, business. That some Europeans turn this towards nefarious purposes should be of no surprise, this is what Europeans normally do!

American Marshall Plan dollars rebuilt Europe after World War II as well, are you going to claim some grand scheme by the Bush family for Belgian imperialism in the Congo too?

Your fundamental mistake is that Europeans started World War I, Europeans started World War II; that American businesses were heavily invested in European markets before, during and after these World Wars is simply a matter of natural course. All nations, on the planet, in the past, present and future will be conducting business with one another. We even underwrote Stalin's entire war machine in World War II; are you claiming some grand conspiracy there for Americans underwriting the spread of Communism?
Old 07-18-2014, 11:49 PM
4,760 posts, read 1,876,548 times
Reputation: 4823
It's in fact still inconclusive. I personally think the rebs did it as they have a working BUK system and had reason to do it.

Last edited by Rozenn; 07-19-2014 at 06:23 AM.. Reason: Unnecessary
Old 07-19-2014, 01:18 AM
Location: Russia
4,082 posts, read 2,157,315 times
Reputation: 1206
By the way. If we assume that the rebels themselves could not shoot down the plane because a weapon is too complex, it remains possible killers: Russia or Ukraine. Who was more profitable to shoot down the plane?
Old 07-19-2014, 02:05 AM
Location: Great Britain
2,739 posts, read 2,483,659 times
Reputation: 1425
In terms of the whole loan debate it's a bit off topic but lets not forget the US did take a lot of gold from Britain and her Empire before entering the war, it's chronicled here -

Uncovered: American duplicity that finally explodes the myth of a 'Special Relationship': How US discussed 'blasting the hell' out of UK forces in the Suez Crisis... and other shameful betrayals of our historic alliance | Mail Online

In terms of the plane, it look like Pro-Russian Rebels carried out the attack using a Russian Launcher which has been filmed going back over the border in to Russia with a missile missing. Given that NATO E-3 AWACS surveillance aircraft are flying over the region any further use of such missiles could well bring NATO forces in to the region. Can you imagine if these idiots bring down an NATO E-3 AWACS.

BBC News - Nato jets to monitor Ukraine border

As for the RAF E-3 AWACS one was over my house in the UK yesterday exercising, it was flying so low it nearly took my chimney pot off, and it hasn't done that it while, so NATO is preparing for something.

Boeing E-3 Sentry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by Bamford; 07-19-2014 at 02:23 AM..
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