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Old 07-17-2014, 11:39 AM
 
551 posts, read 657,690 times
Reputation: 941

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Yeah, the evidence is not conclusive at the moment, but let's be frank here: the Ukrainian military is tantamount to a disorganized rabble. The technological hardware to do this, in as much as it exists over there, is almost all in the hands of the Russians and Russia-backed separatists. It does not take a rocket scientist (no pun intended) to figure this one out.

The west, fearful of a disruption of gas supplies, has danced around the issues of real sanctions for months now. But if legitimate economy-wide sanctions are imposed, what exactly is to hold Putin back from making real moves into Ukraine (Russia is a one-trick pony when it comes to economy. Stop buying the gas and, presumably, they crash)? Nobody has positioned assets to stop a move on Kiev, and it's doubtful that we'd even try. What would he have to lose?

While it by no means looks as if WW3 is in any way imminent, people need to understand that, when it comes to war, it doesn't take two to tango. Europe and the U.S. may demure from a full-fledged conflict, but Russia is a different beast. What's more, Putin is aware, not only of what the communist bloc looked like, but also this:



This is Europe of a hundred years ago. In many ways, it was both a more complicated and a simpler place. But Russia's physical presence in Europe was undeniable, and the past century has seen that presence -- with occasional exception -- erode precipitously. Though it seems impossible to see Russia making a move on NATO-backed countries like Poland and the Baltic States in the here and now, reoccupying Ukraine would hardly be historically unprecedented, and an occupation would position just such a future move.

All I'm saying is: shooting down airliners full of civilians is a pretty massive escalation. A day ago, who could have predicted this? And who is to say where we go from here? -- in both the short and the long term?

 
Old 07-17-2014, 11:56 AM
 
2,344 posts, read 3,799,679 times
Reputation: 2191
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessoftheCape View Post
Yeah, the evidence is not conclusive at the moment, but let's be frank here: the Ukrainian military is tantamount to a disorganized rabble. The technological hardware to do this, in as much as it exists over there, is almost all in the hands of the Russians and Russia-backed separatists. It does not take a rocket scientist (no pun intended) to figure this one out.
WTF are you talking about? Ukraine shot down a Russian passenger jet in 2001, Ukraine has the capability of shooting down high altitude aircraft.

The rebels however, may or may not have, if they do have, this would be a massive intel failure by Ukraine and the West. It is possible they have as the rebels have control over many military bases in E. Ukraine.

As for if it was Russia, the only way would be for Russia to fly a jet across the border and shoot it down, zero support of this yet if this did occur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessoftheCape View Post
The west, fearful of a disruption of gas supplies, has danced around the issues of real sanctions for months now. But if legitimate economy-wide sanctions are imposed, what exactly is to hold Putin back from making real moves into Ukraine (Russia is a one-trick pony when it comes to economy. Stop buying the gas and, presumably, they crash)? Nobody has positioned assets to stop a move on Kiev, and it's doubtful that we'd even try. What would he have to lose?
Up until six months ago, no one cared about Ukraine, now of a sudden they are the focus of some BS moral imperceptive from the West. Yea, gas is important as the economy depends on this, I do not think many voters would appreciate losing their jobs and having gas shortages all in the name of Ukraine, a country with a less than stellar reputation and a mafia billionaire oligarch who is in charge,

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessoftheCape View Post
While it by no means looks as if WW3 is in any way imminent, people need to understand that, when it comes to war, it doesn't take two to tango. Europe and the U.S. may demure from a full-fledged conflict, but Russia is a different beast. What's more, Putin is aware, not only of what the communist bloc looked like, but also this:
How is Russia different? it acts in its own self interest, as does every other country. It is the US with bases circling Russia, not the other way around. The US would throw a fit if Russia set up bases in Mexico, the US already is going nuts over Russia reactivating its Cuba spy base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessoftheCape View Post
This is Europe of a hundred years ago. In many ways, it was both a more complicated and a simpler place. But Russia's physical presence in Europe was undeniable, and the past century has seen that presence -- with occasional exception -- erode precipitously. Though it seems impossible to see Russia making a move on NATO-backed countries like Poland and the Baltic States in the here and now, reoccupying Ukraine would hardly be historically unprecedented, and an occupation would position just such a future move.
Aside from post WW2 Soviet Union, Russia's position in Europe is the strongest it has been since the aftermath of the 1812 war.

Do not forget who ahs attack who more often in the past; Russia has been the subject of constant attacks from Western European countries and Poland in the past. This is where they derive their paranoia from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessoftheCape View Post
All I'm saying is: shooting down airliners full of civilians is a pretty massive escalation. A day ago, who could have predicted this? And who is to say where we go from here? -- in both the short and the long term?
This is not an escalation at all; The soviets shot down one, the US shot down one, Ukraine shot down one, none of which led to any escalation of any kind.
 
Old 07-17-2014, 12:03 PM
 
1,794 posts, read 1,750,531 times
Reputation: 1636
Russia and the Ukraine are not part of Europe, not sure what we have to do with all this. There have been wars inside Europe like the one in the Balkans and we just went on with our lives and more of less ignored it.
 
Old 07-17-2014, 12:09 PM
 
108 posts, read 88,959 times
Reputation: 14
As if anyone would put any resources to fight a war over a plane that doesn't belong to any country in Europe. However, I know many in the US wish another war started.
 
Old 07-17-2014, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
2,739 posts, read 2,481,723 times
Reputation: 1425
America would never shoot down an unarmed civilian passenger aircraft, would it.

BBC ON THIS DAY | 3 | 1988: US warship shoots down Iranian airliner

The forgotten story of Iran Air Flight 655 - The Washington Post

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And now it's emerged that it was Iran that shot down Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie in revenge for the US Navy shooting down Iran Air 655 and that Lockerbie was nothing to do with Libya.

Lockerbie bombing 'was work of Iran, not Libya' says former spy - Telegraph

‘Iran ordered Lockerbie bombing’, claims ex-Iranian intelligence officer - The Independent

IRAN blew up Lockerbie jet - not Libya, says defector | Mail Online

Lockerbie bombing: CIA believes 'to a man' that Iran carried out attack on Pan Am Flight 103, says former agent - Telegraph

Lockerbie bombing: has the truth finally been revealed? | Lockerbie bomber News | The Week UK

Lockerbie bombing was ordered by Ayatollah Khomeini, ex-Iranian spy says | National Post



Last edited by Bamford; 07-17-2014 at 12:44 PM..
 
Old 07-17-2014, 01:04 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 1,942,066 times
Reputation: 1507
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThermoMan View Post
However, I know many in the US wish another war started.
can you provide any evidence to support your assertion?

if not, just be quiet. you're not adding any value.
 
Old 07-17-2014, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong / Vienna
4,557 posts, read 4,818,735 times
Reputation: 3895
Quote:
Originally Posted by RecentlyMoved View Post
can you provide any evidence to support your assertion?

if not, just be quiet. you're not adding any value.
Exhibit A: http://www.city-data.com/forum/polit...95-people.html
 
Old 07-17-2014, 01:14 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 1,942,066 times
Reputation: 1507
Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis View Post
what are you showing me, exactly? this is a several page thread about the plane crash.
 
Old 07-17-2014, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,828 posts, read 3,387,228 times
Reputation: 1815
IF there were American citizens on board, yes you will see American's wanting something to come out of it. All out war...maybe.
 
Old 07-17-2014, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
6,549 posts, read 4,683,807 times
Reputation: 4298
This is so terrible.
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