Origin of the Sami people? (culture, beautiful, influence, time)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Healing is a shamanic function, as is exorcism or "getting evil spirits to disappear". Those are the main elements in the shaman's "job description", along with clairvoyance/divination. And actually, it's a common misconception to some degree that shamans are the heads of a religion. Their main function is as stated above. Many aspects of the "religion" (animism, usually, and sky-god and earth-goddess worship) function without the shaman. And not all shamanic traditions use hallucinogens or mood-altering substances. As for trance-work, not all shamans do that, either. In Siberia, there are "greater shamans", who go into trance, and "lesser shamans", who are more like garden-variety energy-healers and clairvoyants who also sometimes offer prayers to spirits or deities on behalf of the patient. The absence of trancework isn't necessarily an indication of the absence of shamanism, though I'd tend to agree with you on that count.
So personally, based on what you've said here, I'd say the jury is out for now on the question of whether or not the Finns had shamans. It's an interesting question. Thanks for the info. This topic might be worth having its own dedicated thread.
Yes, sure there are common elements. Might be just a difference in viewpoints. Finnish scholars are very certain to break these into parts, differenting the wizard characters from "real" shamans going into trance, leading congregations and banging on drums, like the Sami did have.
The tietäjä characters were not maybe energy-healers, but more of traditional medicine practicers and teachers how to get rid of evil spirits, fairies, pixies, and the "others" like goblins who represented the elements. Important features were that it was up to you to get harmony with the deceased, the elements and the nature, or dead can rise up from Tuonela, the Finnish Hades, and haunt you. Incantations could be said by anyone, and not reserved to the clergy. Likewise the tietäjä characters often settled disputes acting as judges, and therefore were migratory so they would stay neutral.
Here's the tietäjä Väinämöinen playing a kantele:
A great piece that Havamal. The word 'graved' here......just to get bearings how is that to be read? Say to burial? And is Norse the language that this translation comes from? I'd sure like to explore this.
Actually, I think it is related to the word 'engraved'. Other translations use wrought, scratched, scraped, scribed, inscribed etc.
And it is in reference to the mythological origins of writing or inscribing runes.
Many stanzas of the greater work of the Havamal are thought to date to the 9th and 10th century, but the source from which the above translation is taken was written down in the 13th century in Old Icelandic which is a later dialect of Old Norse.
Yes, sure there are common elements. Might be just a difference in viewpoints. Finnish scholars are very certain to break these into parts, differenting the wizard characters from "real" shamans going into trance, leading congregations and banging on drums, like the Sami did have.
The tietäjä characters were not maybe energy-healers, but more of traditional medicine practicers and teachers how to get rid of evil spirits, fairies, pixies, and the "others" like goblins who represented the elements. Important features were that it was up to you to get harmony with the deceased, the elements and the nature, or dead can rise up from Tuonela, the Finnish Hades, and haunt you. Incantations could be said by anyone, and not reserved to the clergy. Likewise the tietäjä characters often settled disputes acting as judges, and therefore were migratory so they would stay neutral.
Here's the tietäjä Väinämöinen playing a kantele:
Hmmm... This picture made me think right away of this;
P.S. I always thought that shamanism and paganism were not one and the same thing. There is a difference between them - I just need to figure out which one.
The term 'paganism', at least academically, usually refers to religions and beliefs outside Abrahamic monotheism and to include indigenous folk religions.
Thus shamanism, indigenous European religions, Hinduism, animism, and other traditions fall under the heading of paganism.
For a Christian missionary in Scandinavia or Finland in the 9th century, everyone was a pagan whether a Norwegian, a Finn, or Sami.
P.S. I always thought that shamanism and paganism were not one and the same thing. There is a difference between them - I just need to figure out which one.
Yes, I noticed some similarity with Russian culture, but there also seems to be a lot that's different. The wandering minstrel tradition reminded me of the "skomorokhi", naturally, but Ariete said they were healers and also conflict adjudicators, which is very interesting. The skomorokh tradition didn't have those elements.
Also, I'm wondering if there was a matriarchal element in the culture back then. There seems to be something like Goddess worship going on in that picture. In Russian and Balt folklore, the swan is a symbol of the Goddess (according to Maria Gimbutas, and it seems to make sense, looking at some of the folktales). We need some help in decoding the elements in that picture.
The term 'paganism', at least academically, usually refers to religions and beliefs outside Abrahamic monotheism and to include indigenous folk religions.
Thus shamanism, indigenous European religions, Hinduism, animism, and other traditions fall under the heading of paganism.
For a Christian missionary in Scandinavia or Finland in the 9th century, everyone was a pagan whether a Norwegian, a Finn, or Sami.
I understand the approach of a "Christian missionary," who sees the people that do not adhere to a monotheistic religion as a bunch that needs to be converted, calling them all "pagans," no matter what their differences are. However from ethnic/historic point of view it's precisely the difference in religion ( pagan religion) that sets them ethnically apart. There are differences between Siberian Shamanism and Russian Paganism for example, clearly setting these two apart. In the same manner, Finns and Saami are two different groups of people, if you trace their religion.
Yes, I noticed some similarity with Russian culture, but there also seems to be a lot that's different. The wandering minstrel tradition reminded me of the "skomorokhi", naturally, but Ariete said they were healers and also conflict adjudicators, which is very interesting. The skomorokh tradition didn't have those elements.
I looked it up on Russian sites - indeed "skomorochi" had these qualities ("healers of human souls") - most likely originally, then with time probably "skomorochi" became just entertainers.
I never looked in Finnish direction in particular, but overall everything I saw about "early Russia" undoubtedly pointed somewhere in very Northern direction, be that Scandinavia or what's not.
Quote:
Also, I'm wondering if there was a matriarchal element in the culture back then. There seems to be something like Goddess worship going on in that picture. In Russian and Balt folklore, the swan is a symbol of the Goddess (according to Maria Gimbutas, and it seems to make sense, looking at some of the folktales). We need some help in decoding the elements in that picture.
The genetic plot thickens, for the Saami. I just came across some very interesting info. Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup Z, an East and Central Asian group, mainly, is common among the Saami. I'm reading a report by Russian researchers on a region in West Siberia that was first populated around 6000 years ago, and they say they were surprised to find Z among the remains of the earliest inhabitants of the region. So that would indicate a migration of Z from the general area of Manchuria and Central Asia to Western Siberia, and eventually to Saamiland, it would seem.
Here's what Wiki says about mtDNA Hg Z: Its greatest clade diversity is found in Korea, northern China, and Central Asia. However, its greatest frequency appears in some peoples of Russia and among the Saami people of northern Scandinavia.
Re: "Both the terms "Finn" and "Sami" are rather new inventions, like 600 years old"
You know I guess that that's in contrast with a ref I found where it is noted that Tacitus, the great Roman historian , supposedly speaks of the 'Sami' and this is in his 'Germania' (not our conception but Romes's at the time) around 9 A.D. It appears that ' Sami' was used for 'Fenni' in the modern translation. Maybe that would be stretching it? Tacitus by the way wondered whether he should classify the Fenni/Sami? as Sarmatian (Asiatic characteristics) or 'German'.
Here's how he saw them:
"Unafraid of anything that man or god can do to them, they have reached a state that few human beings can attain: for these men are so well content that they do not need to pray for anything. What comes after them is the stuff of fables -Hellusii and Oxiones with the faces and features of men, the bodies and limbs of animals. On such unverifiable stories I shall express no opinion"
Also, I'm wondering if there was a matriarchal element in the culture back then. There seems to be something like Goddess worship going on in that picture. In Russian and Balt folklore, the swan is a symbol of the Goddess (according to Maria Gimbutas, and it seems to make sense, looking at some of the folktales). We need some help in decoding the elements in that picture.
Sorry, didn't notice this question, but bettern late than never.
Looked it up. On the right corner down is Ahti and Vellamo, the god and goddess of the sea. The women with the swan are sotkatar's, a type of siren. On the left the young woman is Pellervoinen, the goddess of growth, and the couple in the back embracing each other are Tapio and Mielikki, the god and goddess of the forest. Far back on the left is a hiisi, a guardian of a sacred grove with a bear. (Bear worship). The women in the sky are the Maidens of the Sky, not much is known about them, but they helped in creating the world.
As there are a big number of female gods in Finnish mythology, and the main antagonist in the national epic Kalevala is Pohjan Akka, (the hag from the North) and leader of the Northerners, it might well be that pre-medieval Finland was somewhat an egalitarian society. The Pohjan Akka can transform herself to a Roc bird, and she might have some inspiration from the Sami female shamans, which were widely feared both in Finnish and Scandinavian mythology. The Northerners are sometimes depicted as Sami, but they were adept shipbuilders and had a huge mansion, like Valhalla, neither which really fits the Sami, so the Northerners might symbolise all "enemies" - Sami, Swedes, Kvens, Norsemen, Novgorodians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric
You know I guess that that's in contrast with a ref I found where it is noted that Tacitus, the great Roman historian , supposedly speaks of the 'Sami' and this is in his 'Germania' (not our conception but Romes's at the time) around 9 A.D. It appears that ' Sami' was used for 'Fenni' in the modern translation. Maybe that would be stretching it? Tacitus by the way wondered whether he should classify the Fenni/Sami? as Sarmatian (Asiatic characteristics) or 'German'.
Here's how he saw them:
"Unafraid of anything that man or god can do to them, they have reached a state that few human beings can attain: for these men are so well content that they do not need to pray for anything. What comes after them is the stuff of fables -Hellusii and Oxiones with the faces and features of men, the bodies and limbs of animals. On such unverifiable stories I shall express no opinion"
Yes, it's mostly likely that Tacitus means the Sami, as he depict the Fenni as nomadic skiiers, when the Finns were stationary farmers at that time. Also the Norse Sagas tells about wars against Finns/Sami/Lapps. What the Swedish and Norwegians meant as "Finland" was most likely only the Southern coast of Finland.
Ynglinga Saga: "It happened one summer that King Agne went with his army to Finland, and landed and marauded. The Finland people gathered a large army, and proceeded to the strife under a chief called Froste. There was a great battle, in which King Agne gained the victory, and Froste fell there with a great many of his people. King Agne proceeded with armed hand through Finland, subdued it, and made enormous booty."
Egil's Saga:
"Ottar (Ohthere) said that the Norwegians' (Norðmanna) land was very long and very narrow ... and to the east are wild mountains, parallel to the cultivated land. Sami people (Finnas) inhabit these mountains ... Then along this land southwards, on the other side of the mountain (sic), is Sweden ... and along that land northwards, Kvenland (Cwenaland)."
Last edited by Ariete; 03-03-2015 at 12:32 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This topic might be worth having its own dedicated thread.
