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The way I see it most countries only join for monetary reasons while their populations (which is not the same as their governments) don't like the EU. People have rarely been asked whether they want to join. Island has opted against EU membership recently, if I remember correctly.
What people seem to ignore is that a country can be tied to Europe in terms of trade via the EEA (which is like Nafta or Mercosul), without being a member of the EU, i.e. remaining politically independent. That is the way to go in my view.
This is false. Most people in the UK back EU membership. I'm sure it's the same elsewhere as we tend to be more eurosceptic than the rest. Most people in Eurozone countries also support the continuation of the Euro.
So really, you're lying, or just don't know what you're talking about.
What other people seems to ignore is that members of the EEA needs to adopt EU law without having any representation in the process of legislature. No members in the EU parliament, no EU-commissioners, no spot in the EU council.
That is why it is called Fax-democracy. The Commission proposes a legislature, it bounces back and forth between the three legislative branches of EU, and when it is done it is faxed to EEA members. There you go guys, adopt this law.
Iceland must have had a good reason not to join the EU, but remain an EEA country only. And nobody is forced to be in the EEA, either.
The whole EU is a big mistake in my view, it should never have gone beyond a mere trading zone like Mercosul. I hope to get out of this terrible continent asap. I want my fully sovereign nations back, and a lot more people than what some people here seem to think want that as well.
What would help is a second parallel union, which is only about trade tariffs and superficial things like that, but not about politics and laws. One big country could make the start and surely others would follow. Membership could be parallel in both the EU and the new zone, but sooner or later more and more people would realize that trading is enough, no need to give up any national sovereignty and they would opt for the new zone only, which would become bigger and bigger and thus there would be no more need to care what the remaining EU does or wants.
This is false. Most people in the UK back EU membership. I'm sure it's the same elsewhere as we tend to be more eurosceptic than the rest. Most people in Eurozone countries also support the continuation of the Euro.
So really, you're lying, or just don't know what you're talking about.
I disagree. People like the Brits only don't leave because they fear economic problems, not because they like the EU and want to be part of it. And that applies to many if not most countries.
I disagree. People like the Brits only don't leave because they fear economic problems, not because they like the EU and want to be part of it. And that applies to many if not most countries.
Exactly, spot on, Neuling. What makes countries stay in the EU is FEAR : fear of economic problems, fear of war, fear of repeating past history (particularly the dreaded 20th century). No enthusiasm, no love for Brussels there. But fear is no vector of progress , quite the opposite, it hampers progress, it's a conservative reaction.
Overall, I think the EU is a good idea since it will prevent any more major conflicts like in the 20th century and will call out on fellow EU countries if they pass unjust laws and the right for each country's citizens to work and live in each other's countries.
Overall, I think the EU is a good idea since it will prevent any more major conflicts like in the 20th century and will call out on fellow EU countries if they pass unjust laws and the right for each country's citizens to work and live in each other's countries.
Really? It will prevent war? What is the basis for that claim? Such a claim sounds a lot like EU propaganda.
Exactly, spot on, Neuling. What makes countries stay in the EU is FEAR : fear of economic problems, fear of war, fear of repeating past history (particularly the dreaded 20th century). No enthusiasm, no love for Brussels there. But fear is no vector of progress , quite the opposite, it hampers progress, it's a conservative reaction.
Errr, no? Countries stay in EU because it is economically and politically the rational choice.
Fear is however the primary motivator of the EU skeptic parties such Front National, Lega Nord, UKIP etc. Fear of losing sovereignty, fear of immigrants, fear of being dominated by Germany, fear of this and that - you name it.
Really? It will prevent war? What is the basis for that claim? Such a claim sounds a lot like EU propaganda.
Ensuring peace were one of the main goals with the European Coal and Steel Community, yes. Making the countries economically dependent on each other will reduce the risk of war, I think that is quite obvious?
Thank you for providing a perfect example of how fear is used by EU sceptics. FBF stated his opionion, and now he is an evil EU propagandist.
Ensuring peace were one of the main goals with the European Coal and Steel Community, yes. Making the countries economically dependent on each other will reduce the risk of war, I think that is quite obvious?
Yes and no. A giant no. Economic interdependence will come anyway, event without a very expensive EU. The world is globalizing and it does not need the EU for that. I has never needed the EU for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDentist
Thank you for providing a perfect example of how fear is used by EU sceptics. FBF stated his opionion, and now he is an evil EU propagandist.
Fear is used by the EU propagandists. We had a perfect EEG, and did not need nor ask for an EU in its current form.
Front Nationa, Lega nOrd the UKIP are perfectly democratic parties, or maybe do you want to prohibit them ... some special conception of democracy "Europhiles" you have.
As Hockeyand Rugby pointed out, the European structure is spiralling out of control : to maintain itself, it need s to constantly grow bigger, swallow more territories (it is even question to include Turkey which is geographically not even for the most part in Europe) and mingle more and more in every detail of the life of the half billion Euro citizens. It is counter productive in an era when people are craving for more local democracy and when "small is beautiful" is the motto of the day, far away from vertical soviet like structures which are exactly the way EU structures are.
A good example of the stupid EU meddling in the day-to-day lfe of millions of citizen is the obligation to change times twice a year, and the stupid "summer time" (GMT+2) imposed on people with dire consequences on health, pollution, and quality of life in general. And there are many, many such examples, which counterbalance greatly the rare cases when Brussels rules had a positive effect (in limiting the excesses of hunters in France, Italy and Malta for instance).
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