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so what? Show me the years and source. Was it during the depressed greek economy era which was destroyed with austerity measures? That's not the point anyway
Lol, the austerity measures doesn't effect the exports. The aim of the austerity measures was to get the imports down, that was successful.
No other country is in a similar situation situation as Greece.
If your debt to GDP ratio is that low, wouldn't large deficit spending to stimulate the economy be a good idea rather than austerity? That's what we did here, and it helped. Cutting spending leads to the GDP shrinking further; ratio I read is by a factor of about 1.5.
It's a bit odd to hear self-described left-leaning Europeans praise austerity, it's a view I'd associate with the Republican Party.
Many have advocated more investments to stimulate than austerity, that is true, but the government thinks austerity is the way forward. After all, it has worked here before. Most of the cuts will be in social benefits and government. Only alcohol, car and cigarette taxes are being raised, while the income tax is not. Also measures like cutting bureaucracy are being made trying to stimulate exports and attracting investment. Other measures are mostly small trimmings, like not making class sizes smaller and cutting foreign aid. So these are not as dramatical as in Greece.
So yes. No other country is Greece.
edit: holding the line on wages is something that hasn't been seriously considered at least yet. Strangling the purchasing power is known to be only harmful.
LOL to you. Austerity measures effected everything and caused a downward spiral to the whole economy
Try to tell that to your bank after you stop paying your mortgage: "You're strangling me with austerity! I know I owe you $300,000, but times are tough. Why don't you give me another $300,000 I'll never pay back so that things can be turned around?"
Nobody in their right mind would loan you more money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete
Many have advocated more investments to stimulate than austerity, that is true, but the government thinks austerity is the way forward. After all, it has worked here before. Most of the cuts will be in social benefits and government. Only alcohol, car and cigarette taxes are being raised, while the income tax is not. Also measures like cutting bureaucracy are being made trying to stimulate exports and attracting investment. Other measures are mostly small trimmings, like not making class sizes smaller and cutting foreign aid. So these are not as dramatical as in Greece.
So yes. No other country is Greece.
edit: holding the line on wages is something that hasn't been seriously considered at least yet. Strangling the purchasing power is known to be only harmful.
Dude, they are out of money. Are you going to give them some?
What is troubling here is how ignorant people are about money. MOST OF THE TIME, YOU CAN'T BORROW YOUR WAY TO PROSPERITY!
Look at the typical family-run big business. Do you know what most of them do with their finances? THEY DON'T TAKE ON ANY DEBT!!! Because they don't have to pay off the bankers, they literally have money gushing in. People with too much debt almost never prosper.
Taking on debt is only a Wall Street thing ... they see a pile of money there and they tell the company to take on debt because they want to get their hands on that pile of money. Real life, however, doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way on an individual basis and it doesn't work that way for family owned companies--Why in the world do you think it would work for a nation?
Last edited by PerryMason614; 07-18-2015 at 09:18 AM..
If Germans can get more done in 1400 hours than Greeks working double the hours that should tell you something right there.
How can anybody be so clueless. They were struggling in the 1980's and for the 150 years before that. Greece has always been a poor country. It just doesn't look poor right now because it maxed out the German credit card. Yugoslavia looked nice in the 1970's until they ran out of Slovenian money ..... but 10 years of not having money to keep up your infrastructure and everything starts looking like hell. That's what you'll see in Greece in 10 years.
Don't confuse the issue. This is not a math or statistics final--The concept is very simple. Do the 1.8 million people who live in West Virginia produce more per capita than the 11 million people in Greece or not? The answer is yes. Whether that number is 2/3 or 1/2 of the West Virginia number doesn't matter.
Do parts of West Virginia look like hell holes? The answer is yes.
The question I have then is why does Greece think it has the means to look nice and have nice stuff? The correct answer is: IT DOESN'T AND IT DIDN'T.
(If you don't like my comparison using West Virginia because of the low population, it also works with more populous states that are also poor. Comparing the GDPs of Georgia, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, New Mexico, Kentucky, South Carolina will produce similar results. I purposely picked West Virginia because it is mountainous, like Greece.)
Bottom line: You can't have an economy worse than West Virginia's and have the same stuff Germany and The Netherlands have!
Don't misunderstand me. I completely agree with you. Before the crisis the Greek GDP was completely bloated. The relative high standard of living in Greece was just a result of the rising debt. Probably no other country benefited more from the EU and the Euro than Greece. Now the party is over and the Greeks are confronted with a standard of life that is within their means.
I just don't like those ppp adjusted GDP figures. Whether the GDP per capita of Greece is below or above that of West Virginia doesn't matter. I would guess that Greece normally have to look more like Romania. Because that appearance would fit more to the economic capabilities of Greece.
Don't misunderstand me. I completely agree with you. Before the crisis the Greek GDP was completely bloated. The relative high standard of living in Greece was just a result of the rising debt. Probably no other country benefited more from the EU and the Euro than Greece. Now the party is over and the Greeks are confronted with a standard of life that is within their means.
I just don't like those ppp adjusted GDP figures. Whether the GDP per capita of Greece is below or above that of West Virginia doesn't matter. I would guess that Greece normally have to look more like Romania. Because that appearance would fit more to the economic capabilities of Greece.
Agreed and it isn't going to be pretty.
With GDP numbers or with any other number, I try not to get hung up on the specifics. They are, however, meaningful as a barometer of what the underlying story is.
Manufacturing in Greece accounts for about 8% of GDP in 2013. That fits pretty well to your numbers.
But the percentage of manufacturing is also very low in some other countries:
sure, it tells me that the Germans are not as hard working as the say they are.
How can anybody be so clueless is right! If you knew the history of Greece, you know it has been ravaged by wars including a horrible German occupation which looted their gold reserves. What does producing in WV or other states have do go with Greece? America is more industrialized and polluted for that matter and their histories as mentioned are completely different. Its a huge country with a centralized federalized form of government. What an odd comparison You need a geography and a history lesson. Who are you to say what a country can have or not? Only those sick control freaks called banksters can. Are you one of them? Maxed out the credit card that belongs to Germany?
REally that clueless? You also need another geopolitical lesson because you missed the first one. Fraudulent money that floats western european economies is what you are talking about? Money from derivatives.? Money that the banks don't have to loan but still do on speculation just as in the case as it was here in the US before the 08 crash? Banks that are basically insolvent? Economies that print money out of thin air and where debt is the norm? Really? That CLUELESS? Your comparisons are nullified because of the above stated facts and since so very little is based on the basic fundamentals of economics anymore.
Nice stuff? The US supposedly one of the richest country in the world which has a huge portion of its citizens working from paycheck to paycheck and are basically flat out broke? Many others up to their neck in debt (debt slaves)? Citizens that think a nice car is a luxury? These goods? Really? I suppose if you judge the wealth of a country by the wealth of its multinationals and greedy institutions like Goldman Sachs then you can be happy with that. Guess what? Much of the world's citizens are not!
When those OECD statistics are correct, then the Germans are the laziest people in the OECD
I don't know where the myth that Germans are so hardworking come from. As a German I would say, that Germans are very focused on what they are doing. Germans work less hours at the workplace, but I would never say that we are lazy. We work a lot on our homes or in our gardens
I also only work part-time (24 hours a week). I am single, and there is no need for me to work more hours. I would never say that the Greeks are lazy. The difference is, that probably all industries in Germany are way more efficient than the industries in Greece.
I am very glad that the people in Germany are able to enjoy a lot of leisure time, but still well supplied with materially wealth. And in addition to that able to achieve a huge current account surplus. It's the same in some other European countries, for example the Netherlands or Denmark.
He stands up for the banks and takes the conversation to a personal level when he knows someone has made a good counterpoint! Continuous Greek bashing by nobody else but yours truly carpathian who has never anything good to say about Greece. What's the point of even contesting anything with this person as I have numerous times before only to get pulled into name calling? But this guy keeps on going and doesn't give up with his Greek bashing! Just amazed How can anyone be so biased and hateful?
I can understand that someone from Romania don't speak well of Greece. From the economic capabilities people in Romania should be able to enjoy a standard of life comparable to the Greeks, or even higher. But Romanians are still much poorer. I don't think that this is fair. Romanians don't live constantly above their means.
You are right if you complain about the banks from Western European countries or from the U.S. But that doesn't mean that Greece don't have to pay back their debt. Greece already had get huge debt cuts. Greece enjoyed for many many years a standard of life well above their means. And it's not ok if the average people in Finland, Germany, Slovenia and so on have to suffer even more through new debt cuts.
I really don't hate the Greeks. I really want that Greece get back on track. But I really hate it when so many Greeks think that Berlin or Brüssel is responsible for the Greek crisis. It's so disgraceful how Greeks illustrate Merkel and Schäuble at the moment. The Greeks can't expect compassion if they constantly insult the people from other Europan countries.
No other country is in a similar situation situation as Greece.
If your debt to GDP ratio is that low, wouldn't large deficit spending to stimulate the economy be a good idea rather than austerity? That's what we did here, and it helped. Cutting spending leads to the GDP shrinking further; ratio I read is by a factor of about 1.5.
It's a bit odd to hear self-described left-leaning Europeans praise austerity, it's a view I'd associate with the Republican Party.
“It’s the structure of our exports that’s a big problem, and that has nothing to do with austerity,” says Danske Bank’s Kuoppamäki.
Even if austerity isn’t entirely to blame for Finland’s current problems, further austerity measures could make things worse. Holding the line on wage increases could dampen consumer demand still further, along with curbs on pension and welfare spending that the government wants to impose. Although Finland needs to revamp its welfare state, KuoppamUaki says, “this might not be the right time to address it.”
The Anglo-American perception of this economical field is rather different from the German? or continental European one. I have studied economics in Germany and so for me it's clear that the austerity policies is the right one
Of course austerity will strain the economic growth, but only in the next years. Afther that it will get better. In my opinion the Anglo-American perception isn't sustainable in the long run. The GDP is growing very strong, but the average people do not participate in this economic upswing. Especially in the UK, the recent strong GDP growth is in my opinion just inflated. The current account deficit gets bigger and bigger. That isn't sustainable. It's maybe a little bit different in the U.S. The fracking boom has helped a lot in the U.S. But it seems that the average American is unable to participate to the economic upswing. The Anglo-American way leads in my opinion to more income inequality. The middle class is struggling to make ends meet. Either in the U.S. and the UK the price level seems extremely inflated. I am pretty sure, that the Anglo-American way is not the right way. GDP growth in the US or in the UK often doesn't seem real. There was an interesting article about that:
But I don't know why we in Germany try to achieve constantly balanced budgets. I would prefer a deficit of 1% - 2% of GDP. The ratio debt mountain to GDP would still decline. Maybe our government seeks to balance the budgets because of the upcoming difficulties that we will face to in the future, due to a shrinking work force.
Most Germans are cautious about proposals from American economists and politicians. I often have the feeling that they don't understand that things work different over here. We don't see the need for constantly big GDP growth.
During the last recession, the GDP in the U.S. declined in 2009 only about 2.6%. In Germany it declined about 5.6%. But the recession had some severe effects in the U.S. That wasn't the case in Germany, while the decline in GDP was much stronger. I wouldn't be surprised if the GDP figures in the U.S. or in the UK are largely overestimated.
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How can anyone be so biased and hateful?
