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Old 07-16-2015, 01:33 PM
 
10,839 posts, read 14,677,694 times
Reputation: 7872

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger-f View Post
Very interesting article from the Washington Post ...
""
buddha_boy
2:59 PM EDT
As an American of Indian origin - I do not have a dog in this European 'fight'. That said, having lived in Europe for many years - I am intimately familiar with the continent's history. Especially German history. Over the years, Germany's conviction of its 'superiority' over others has taken many forms. In the last century it was expressed in racial terms that resulted in the deaths of 100 million people and unimaginable destruction in countries like Poland and Russia. It was said then that the German guilt will not be diluted in 10,000 years! How soon we forget!! Bullying weaker nations continues to be part of the German DNA. Merkel is now lecturing Russia (in Moscow - no less) over Ukraine/Crimea during the Russian Victory day celebrations!! Oh! the temerity.... Murderous violence of 75 and 100 years ago has been replaced by just as brutal economic violence. Now that they have pummeled Greece into submission, next in line would be Portugal, Italy, and Spain.
All this convinces me that this current crop of HUN is not any different from its Nazi forebears. Perhaps, the World powers should have turned Germany into farmlands after WWII after all.
As they say in the old country - off-spring of a snake will remain a snake."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ed4_story.html
I don't believe in any of this.

Keep talking about WWII is gonna make Germany the bad guy here. Germany has healthy growth, no financial trouble and keeps bailing out Greece. Why should the current generation of Germans feel guilty about what the grandfather did in the 1940s? I don't get it. Keep blaming the Nazi history and somehow associating it with the current situation is laughable.

The German feel "superior", so what? Why shouldn't they? Their economy is doing the best and pubic finances the soundest, unemployment low and export strong. Why shouldn't they feel proud compared with those southern nations who simply can't keep themselves out of trouble? I fail to see why Merkel should feel guilty for those victims of Nazi Germany. Yes, it is the same country, but it is not the same people. Does being Germany itself automatically means some sort of original sin? All European countries have killed each other, how is WWII different, just because it is 60 years ago? The war is long over, and keeping playing the victim is pathetic.

And where is the bullying here? If the Greeks think they are been treated unfairly or are bullied, they have the freedom to not accept the bail out package and leave. No one is forcing Greece is stay, is there? Germany is not going to invade Greece because Athens refused the new conditions, is it?

 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:43 PM
 
10,839 posts, read 14,677,694 times
Reputation: 7872
Quote:
Originally Posted by F18 View Post
Honestly I don't really care whether you see Greece as a crappy country or not since I'm not Greek. However, IDK why you're defending Northern European countries so much, when they are also to blame? You know the money given to Greece and other Southern European countries have to come from somewhere...
I am not defending anyone.

The truth is, the northern countries are doing fine. They didn't need "bail out". Greece is incurring too much debt to have its unsustainable lifestyle and can't even repay its creditors, and they are whining as if they are victimized.

You can call Germany's condition "harsh" and "unfair", fine, don't like, don't accept it. The bank can ask for 30% on your mortgage and it is their right and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. If you think that's evil, then don't take the offer and look somewhere else.

Some people are arguing all the bail out are benefiting Germany's export and hurt Greece in the end. So what? German leaders are responsible for German taxpayers. Of course they are supposed to do the best thing for Germany, is there anything wrong with that? When the US or Russia deal with other countries, don't they put their own interest at first? Why should Germany care so much about Greece's long term interest, since Greece doesn't seem to care about it in the first place (otherwise it wouldn't be in this mess in the first place?) If Greece is richer, their tax revenue is not going to pay for infrastructure in Berlin, is it?
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:44 PM
F18
 
542 posts, read 527,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDentist View Post
Yes, and the Northern European countries brutally forced Greece into borrowing money, and forced the Greek people into living beyond their means.

Love that backwards logic. Incredible.
No but this money was part of the European idea, that richer countries and regions should help the poorer ones to develop. Besides the opposite would have been true if the tables were turned.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,144 posts, read 24,729,200 times
Reputation: 11103
Quote:
Originally Posted by F18 View Post
Boasting about history does not mean that the country is crappy. Every country has its ups and downs and not everything relates to economics. But of course a nationalist/jingostic person like you does not understand that.
IMO what did Finland contribute in the last 98 years?
I didn't mean that. I meant that justifying the present day by history is not reasonable.

We have contributed. Jean Sibelius is one of the most admired classical music composers, Leif Segerstam is the most productive composer ever, Alvar Aalto and Eliel Saarinen are of the most famous contemporary architects, Nokia cell phones, the heart rate monitor has saved lives, we have created the AIV fertiliser which has also saved lifes, we have created the electric sail which can help space travel possible among with other developments in aeronautics and space travel, the Linux OS is Finnish, the bloody Molotov cocktail is Finnish. The largest cruise ship ever built is Finnish (MS Allure of the Seas) and so on.

Not to mention Mikael Agricola who was with Luther protesting about the Catholic Church, Anders Chydenius who was an early proposer of liberalism and humanism, and ultimately the society in Europe which granted universal suffrage first.

Just that you don't know them or they're not taught in schools doesn't mean they don't exist.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:54 PM
 
10,839 posts, read 14,677,694 times
Reputation: 7872
Quote:
Originally Posted by F18 View Post
No but this money was part of the European idea, that richer countries and regions should help the poorer ones to develop. Besides the opposite would have been true if the tables were turned.
They ARE helping by keeping it in the club, three times. What do you expect, get all the free money and offer nothing in return?

I am sure the "European idea" didn't include cooking your book just to participate first, and then borrowing and spending recklessly until you are broke and cry for help. Do you think Greece would have been let in if the rest of Europe knew what it would do? Why is so hard for Greece to live within its means? All the other countries seem to be doing just fine.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:58 PM
 
13,498 posts, read 18,138,198 times
Reputation: 37885
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
...This because Ancient Greece did this and that and was important for Europe, therefore current day Greeks thousands of years later should be allowed to act reckless and be saved at any cost is really some insane argument.
The culture of modern Greece was rooted in the Byzantine empire, Constantinople and Orthodox Christianity. None of this is tied to ancient Greece and the culture of the Greek classics, this is something that the Greeks had to reconnect with, and were encouraged to embrace given the admiration that foreigners had for it. The culture of the Orthodox church, which had been what sustained Greeks under the Ottomans, had no use for Greece's pagan past.

I agree that none of this provides a free ticket to ride.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:59 PM
 
5,959 posts, read 13,074,748 times
Reputation: 4862
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Puerto Rico?
No. Not in the least.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 02:05 PM
 
12 posts, read 12,570 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
I didn't mean that. I meant that justifying the present day by history is not reasonable.

We have contributed. Jean Sibelius is one of the most admired classical music composers, Leif Segerstam is the most productive composer ever, Alvar Aalto and Eliel Saarinen are of the most famous contemporary architects, Nokia cell phones, the heart rate monitor has saved lives, we have created the AIV fertiliser which has also saved lifes, we have created the electric sail which can help space travel possible among with other developments in aeronautics and space travel, the Linux OS is Finnish, the bloody Molotov cocktail is Finnish. The largest cruise ship ever built is Finnish (MS Allure of the Seas) and so on.

Not to mention Mikael Agricola who was with Luther protesting about the Catholic Church, Anders Chydenius who was an early proposer of liberalism and humanism, and ultimately the society in Europe which granted universal suffrage first.

Just that you don't know them or they're not taught in schools doesn't mean they don't exist.


But must people only knows Finland Vodka and Saunas, unfortunately.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,144 posts, read 24,729,200 times
Reputation: 11103
Quote:
Originally Posted by hepaticW View Post
But must people only knows Finland Vodka and Saunas, unfortunately.
Which is kind of sad, as we are a beer-drinking nation. And we aren't that good at branding, unfortunately.

---

And my original point still stands: I don't want any harm to the Greek people, they have done wrong, especially their politicians with their reckless attitude, but I don't feel superior towards them. But they sure do their best alienating some of us helpers (Germany, Finland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Austria) from them, and with every outburst we have less compassion with the Greeks.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 02:08 PM
 
1,748 posts, read 2,167,402 times
Reputation: 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
I don't believe in any of this.

Keep talking about WWII is gonna make Germany the bad guy here. Germany has healthy growth, no financial trouble and keeps bailing out Greece. Why should the current generation of Germans feel guilty about what the grandfather did in the 1940s? I don't get it. Keep blaming the Nazi history and somehow associating it with the current situation is laughable.

The German feel "superior", so what? Why shouldn't they? Their economy is doing the best and pubic finances the soundest, unemployment low and export strong. Why shouldn't they feel proud compared with those southern nations who simply can't keep themselves out of trouble? I fail to see why Merkel should feel guilty for those victims of Nazi Germany. Yes, it is the same country, but it is not the same people. Does being Germany itself automatically means some sort of original sin? All European countries have killed each other, how is WWII different, just because it is 60 years ago? The war is long over, and keeping playing the victim is pathetic.

And where is the bullying here? If the Greeks think they are been treated unfairly or are bullied, they have the freedom to not accept the bail out package and leave. No one is forcing Greece is stay, is there? Germany is not going to invade Greece because Athens refused the new conditions, is it?
Hey, I did not write the above. While reading through comments though I could see a lot of anti-german sentiment being prevalent. It seems the more Germany insists on austerity, the more they are seen as the warmongers of the past who caused 60 million deaths (WWII).

You missed what was written by that user at the end. "off-spring of a snake will remain a snake." I thought it was interesting.

Also,they are bailing out the banks, not Greece. 90% of the $ goes towards paying interest off. In fact, with a 145% of GDP, Germany is just as irresponsible (actually the majority of today's Western world functions the same way(Casino style markets)).

Another couple interesting articles(one from Germany). Talking about who's corrupted..

Daimler fined $185M for bribery - CNN.com

Complicit in Corruption: How German Companies Bribed Their Way to Greek Deals - SPIEGEL ONLINE
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