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Old 02-04-2016, 12:48 PM
 
26,721 posts, read 22,274,803 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
Okay as long as you recognize that you are familiar with only one same sex couple. If you are asking me about roles I think it is appropriate for both parents to be involved in the upbring and nurturing of a child how the roles are divided is entirely personal.

Regarding the seconds point you make I realize that is your belief however what facts are you basing your beliefs on?
Just your regular down to earth beliefs, that a man and a woman are capable of creating a child, and that every one of them plays certain role in child's upbringing
Two people of the same gender can't create a child and neither can they play roles necessary for child's normal/optimal development. ( Provided this is a heterosexual child.)
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Minsk, Belarus
667 posts, read 934,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
I don't see what is good about your claim that your society is more tolerant of intollerance.

Your societies association with gays being perverts is backwards. I doubt any gay people are asking random people from the public at large to witness their sexual acts that are engaged in privacy, in order to recruit you.
Well I mean that we can say "I like gays/their marriages/adoptions" or "I dislike gays" and it will be fine. We can easily express different opinions about it (in our authoritarian society!) without any bad consequences.
As for perverts - people are free to think so, don't they?
I don't mind gays as such, but I resent the artificial and aggressive hype around them. Are there even gays in this topic or many other such topics? And we keep on discussing it over and over again...
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Kingdom of pain, Southern Europe
1,305 posts, read 1,119,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I am sorry, I follow the common sense here; two people of different gender were MEANT to have children. Two people of the same gander WERE NOT.
Why should I worry about an absence of experience being raised by people who were never ment to have children to begin with?
Setting aside the maturity level and other factors that have nothing to do with sexual orientation; Everyone is inherently capable of taking care of kids, regardless of their actual ability to birth them. The fact that they partner up with someone of the same gender is irrelevant and has no correlation with their ability to care for a child. There's one legit worry about kids adopted by homosexual partners which (I think) you did not take into account, is that they can be bullied by other kids raised in a bigoted society. But that's society's fault, not the parents.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Minsk, Belarus
667 posts, read 934,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
That's because the ex USSR don't have the tradition of free speech and open debate about everything. Well, Belarus still doesn't. Also due to the fact that in the USSR the gay issue was completely wiped under the mat. In official USSR policy homosexuality didn't exist.

Reflecting to this, I'm not surprised about the attitude. As before 1992 almost for anyone being gay was something totally alien, you might get the impression that 'gayness' is something which has spread from Western Europe since the fall of the Soviet Union, because you didn't "have" it before, not to mention anyone talked about it.

We here in the West always knew that we had gays, and with time we started to tolerate them better. We noticed they are like anyone else, they just have a different sexual orientation. For you it might sound like a "hype", but for us it's just a normal free speech discourse.

You are right, in the USSR homosexuality was outlawed. People could be imprisoned for it. Still gays existed, and people were aware of it. It was nothing new.
as for a "normal free speech discourse"- is it really so free? Maybe I am wrong but it looks like only pro-gay point of view is aggresively promoted. Can a decent public figure in Finland openly say something against gays without bad consequences? Juat curious, because I have no idea.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:01 PM
 
26,721 posts, read 22,274,803 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmel View Post
Well I mean that we can say "I like gays/their marriages/adoptions" or "I dislike gays" and it will be fine. We can easily express different opinions about it (in our authoritarian society!) without any bad consequences.
As for perverts - people are free to think so, don't they?
I don't mind gays as such, but I resent the artificial and aggressive hype around them. Are there even gays in this topic or many other such topics? And we keep on discussing it over and over again...
Well, they are probably not on this thread, but they are definitely on this forum.
And I'm sure they are *listening* and might express their opinions too.
Me personally - I don't have any particular anti-gay agenda; more than that - I actually have couple of gay friends, whom I really-really like. I understand that things happen, people are born this way, ( we really don't have choice how/what to be born, and I might have had being born with this condition as well; anyone could have - who knows))))
So those two guys I know are just that - people who deal with this fact the best way they can (not the clownish "gay-pride parades" type of course.)
But that's all totally different from the child-raising issues, and particularly someone else's heterosexual child.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,144 posts, read 24,665,839 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arigarisha View Post
There's one legit worry about kids adopted by homosexual partners which (I think) you did not take into account, is that they can be bullied by other kids raised in a bigoted society. But that's society's fault, not the parents.
It's not a legit worry. If it would, we would have to ban couples with poor sight, poor couples, fat couples and racial minorities to have children. Because the kids might be bullied for having glasses, being poor, fat or being Black or East Asian.

I was bullied in school because I knew more about history more than anyone else. You can be bullied for any reason.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Kingdom of pain, Southern Europe
1,305 posts, read 1,119,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
It's not a legit worry. If it would, we would have to ban couples with poor sight, poor couples, fat couples and racial minorities to have children. Because the kids might be bullied for having glasses, being poor, fat or being Black or East Asian.

I was bullied in school because I knew more about history more than anyone else. You can be bullied for any reason.
Hmm, true, I hadn't though of that.

I retract that bit.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,144 posts, read 24,665,839 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmel View Post
You are right, in the USSR homosexuality was outlawed. People could be imprisoned for it. Still gays existed, and people were aware of it. It was nothing new.
as for a "normal free speech discourse"- is it really so free? Maybe I am wrong but it looks like only pro-gay point of view is aggresively promoted. Can a decent public figure in Finland openly say something against gays without bad consequences? Juat curious, because I have no idea.
A True Finn member of Parliament said in parliament "what if we allow gay marriage, what's next - someone wants to marry his beloved puppy?". He later declined to come to the President's Independence Day Ball, as he couldn't stand same-sex couples dancing together.

Another member said in parliament "we have collectively raped the Christ in the ass by allowing gay marriage".

These outbursts were criticised just because they were so bad and irrelevant. If you're against gay marriage, so be it, it's your opinion, though I think it's a wrong one. But the majority of the people isn't against it.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:10 PM
 
26,721 posts, read 22,274,803 times
Reputation: 9994
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
That's because the ex USSR don't have the tradition of free speech and open debate about everything. Well, Belarus still doesn't. Also due to the fact that in the USSR the gay issue was completely wiped under the mat. In official USSR policy homosexuality didn't exist.
Interestingly enough - what else didn't exist in the Soviet Union ( along with ban on gays) was the sex industry, child pornography including, and Russians are very weary of this very connection. So we are talking about a wider subject than just "gay issue" in this particular case.



Quote:
For Russkies the roles in the family is that the woman cooks, cleans, takes care of the children and have a manicure, while men drink vodka, take care of the finances, fight for the family's "honour" and beat up his wife once in a while so that the sl*t learns her place.

It's a waste of time trying to educate these old-school Russians lobotomised with Soviet propaganda.
Yes, Russian culture is deeply patriarchal, but that's not the result of the "Soviet propaganda" - this patriarchal society in Russia has been established much-much earlier back in times.
Another thing I've noticed in post-Soviet society was the immediate rise of feminism and the kind of "gender wars" that I observed only in America, and never saw in Soviet society.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,144 posts, read 24,665,839 times
Reputation: 11103
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Yes, Russian culture is deeply patriarchal, but that's not the result of the "Soviet propaganda" - this patriarchal society in Russia has been established much-much earlier back in times.
Another thing I've noticed in post-Soviet society was the immediate rise of feminism and the kind of "gender wars" that I observed only in America, and never saw in Soviet society.
Yes, I know about this. In the USSR both parents had to work their butts off to get a living, and still there was no money to buy anything, or later anything to buy. Likewise the clothes were sub-par, and women couldn't even express their feminity if they didn't sew their own clothes. I understand that in post-Soviet Russia people rebelled against this egalitarian misery, despite "the gender war".

On the opposite, in the Nordics always being very equal societies to begin with, also feminism took hold much earlier than in many other more patriarchal European societies.
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