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This documentary called the Swedish Theory of Love has aired on RAI 3 (done by a Swedish and Italian citizen), an Italian publicly funded channel, a few days ago.
It basically argues that Sweden is a society of individuals where society has been built to make the man independent from the woman and viceversa, to make the elderly independent from its sons or family, ecc. Basically a society where anything is possible if one wants it (as the Welfare State helps anyone to realize him/herself as a man/woman) but where on the flipside the sense of
membership to a group or a community which causes a strong feeling of loneliness
As an aside, the documentary argues that Swedish society is more subtle and not as much in your face. He takes as an example the Swedish Democrats arguing that they voice the same xenophobic sentiment that the Northern League does in Italy for example but in a much more subtle and softspoken way while meaning the same things. Basically, even the far right suffers from something akin to political correctness
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Catholic-based cultures tend to be more collective than protestant-based cultures.
This might be quite too much schematical but it has been described bu thinkers such as Weber.
Catholic-based cultures tend to be more collective than protestant-based cultures.
This might be quite too much schematical but it has been described bu thinkers such as Weber.
I wanted more insight from someone who lived in both Southern Europe and Scandinavia or at least who had a decent knowledge of both. I am especially interested to see how family relations differ
I'm Swedish and currently live in Sweden, and I'm not so sure I agree about this.
I studied in USA for 4 years and noticed a big difference between the countries when we talk about being independent.
Sure Sweden changed the tax system in a way to make men/women more independent from each other, but that's also a small crutch when it comes to marriage and children.
Example, when a couple gets a child, whoever stays at home will not recieve any income, which means no pension. That's a huge argument for a way too generous welfare state, where tax money goes to the person staying at home to get pension.
So is that a good thing or a bad thing? I think they should at least have kept the option of joint tax so that one could stay at home if they wanted and not lose pension.
But back to the Swedish Democrates (SD) example.
The only reason they have been more subtle in Sweden compared to any other European country is because of enormous pressure from the rest of the country. I mean, when the other parties, left and right, share almost the exact same politics and begs to people not to vote for SD "beacuase they're racist", the party has to be a bit smarter.
Sure that can backfire at the same time as a hidden agenda.
And I do not consider it a good thing not to care for your own parents! I don't care how independent you think you are. Some elders at the homes will even set the alarm off just to see someone.
But swedes have a tendency of thinking so high off themselves so.. We're the best country, we know much better than any other nation yada yada... It gets boring.
I think I diverterd from the topic, sorry.. A good morning rant
Sweden is not Finland, and not Denmark either. Norway sits on a fence, but leaning towards the latter two.
But as I said on the feminist thread, the Nordic Countries have a long tradition of individualism. Serfdom was never implemented, and before the mid 18th century this region was the poorest in Europe together with some parts of Russia and the Balkans. Because of the low population, it was early implemented that everyone is needed. The men worked on the fields and the women took care of the house, while kids looked after their siblings or went fishing. This tradition lives on today. I changed my first diapers when I was 8, and I was babysitting alone when I was 11. In some other countries the social services would be called for abandonment.
Due to the low population, cold climate and little natural resources the Nordic Countries (especially Sweden) realised that in order to succeed you have to have an educated populace and outwit the enemy. Sweden mastered 17th century military tactics and started a common school system. By 1850 the literacy rate in all Nordic Countries was 100%, while in France it was 60%, Italy 50% and Spain 30%. Even in Britain it was hardly 70%.
What has and is being revered as a valuable trait is personal initiative. Do it yourself, invent, explore. A Swede who served in the Azov battalion in Ukraine told how the Ukrainians didn't do anything unless ordered, and it was a shock to him. The soldiers there had no sense of personal initiative.
All this history leads us to being very individualistic. You do it yourself, and the society is built on personal initiative. The welfare state is built on YOU, not your family.
I have the impression that people from countries with a more generous welfare system tend to be more individualistic. In the U.S. I had the impression that the general public tend to be more conformist (compared to what I'm used to in Germany). Of course you find all kinds of people in the U.S. more diversity than in smaller countries, but I'm referring to the average people, the general public, these "80% in the middle".
Here on CD Americans tend to blame Europe for being "socialistic". That's kinda funny because the U.S. and it's people appear quite "socialistic" from the outward appearance. Clothing, hairstyles, streets, housing. stores, in all such things and probably some more the U.S. seems to be less diverse than European countries.
I have often thought about that. I'm not sure why the general public in the U.S. tends to be less indivdualistic, but maybe the reason is indeed the different size of the welfare system? Or in European countries with less income inequality and where the media is constantly talking about social justice and that all people are equal, people have the desire to be distinguish themselves from other people by buying different fences, unique kitchens and having more distinct hairstyles?
Catholic-based cultures tend to be more collective than protestant-based cultures.
This might be quite too much schematical but it has been described bu thinkers such as Weber.
I see it somewhat differently - the other way around so to speak.
More "collective cultures" went under Catholicism, more "individualistic cultures" went under Protestant Church.
I have the impression that people from countries with a more generous welfare system tend to be more individualistic. In the U.S. I had the impression that the general public tend to be more conformist (compared to what I'm used to in Germany). Of course you find all kinds of people in the U.S. more diversity than in smaller countries, but I'm referring to the average people, the general public, these "80% in the middle".
I find Americans to be much easier manipulated when it comes to "market influence" than Europeans as well. There is some whole deeper layer lacking in them comparably to the "old worlders," some kind of "collective subconsciousness" ( using Youngian terminology,) and once it's removed, they are "programmed" much easier in this respect than their European counterparts.
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Here on CD Americans tend to blame Europe for being "socialistic". That's kinda funny because the U.S. and it's people appear quite "socialistic" from the outward appearance. Clothing, hairstyles, streets, housing. stores, in all such things and probably some more the U.S. seems to be less diverse than European countries.
No-no, that's not "socialistic." This is as I've already said - the easy programming by the "market forces."
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I have often thought about that. I'm not sure why the general public in the U.S. tends to be less indivdualistic, but maybe the reason is indeed the different size of the welfare system?
Don't think it has got anything to do with "welfare system."
In fact, America used to have pretty generous welfare system as well, somewhere...20-30 years (?) ago. The reason they changed it all, was the very issue of "women's emancipation."
They could handle "women's emancipation" from financial point of view for THEIR OWN - i.e. White Americans, plus probably up to a certain degree Blacks that were born in the US. But since the US is a country whose economy is based on constant immigration and supply of cheap labor, they ended up with a lot of women from *third world countries* requiring the same kind of welfare care, which made state's finances/revenues to go bust. And that's what made them to re-evaluate the whole welfare system in the US.
P.S. All right, all right Ruth - Carl Jung.
I have tendency to spell now everything the "English way."
In my eyes, when I moved to the US for school, it was refreshing since everybody was a different individual and not conformists as here in Sweden.
One example, first week of school and a girl comes into class in pj's. Would never happen here! Never.
But as a society, sure, Americans tends to take care of each other much more than we do. Which is also weird. We're such a socialistic and solidarity country, but barely anyone will help someone else for just the sake of helping. Even though the living climate in the US is much harsher than over here due to less welfare and "hire and fire" rules and the like, people seems more generous and helpful than the average Swede.
But Ariete mention one thing, Sweden is not Norway, Denmark or Finland. Even though we're neighbors, there are big cultural differences between us. I mean, Sweden did own all countries at one point
I find Finland more like America and more individual than Sweden. Driving in Northern Finland you see all these houses every now and then, just one house, maybe two.
This is very rare in Sweden where we rather have small villages than a lonely house in the middle of nowhere.
Also, the 3 other countries are more badass than Sweden... I have some finnish in me, and if the language wasn't so different I'd consider moving there. I like the Finns, I find them very down to earth and honest. And obviously tough, living next to the Russian bear.
Also, the 3 other countries are more badass than Sweden... I have some finnish in me, and if the language wasn't so different I'd consider moving there. I like the Finns, I find them very down to earth and honest. And obviously tough, living next to the Russian bear.
Swedes aren't honest? Or do you mean--frank?
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