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By the strictest definition of 'historical claim', a signed agreement is the very definition thereof.
Whether right or wrong is another matter, but it is a documented, written evidence of claim of territory.
In terms of right of precedence, Spain's African cities have passed between European, Berber, Byzantine, and Islamic powers for literally thousands of years.
Germans said they are going to send their panzers, so history is repeating itself.
Is Scotland who doesn't want to be in the UK and to be inside the EU, the president of Scotland clearly stated that if the UK voted yes for Brexit, Scotland would leave as 2/3 of Scotland voted NO for Brexit.
In Catalonia, in fact, in the last elections, up to 54% of votes went to non-independent parties, but the Spanish electoral system maded the pro-independence to have a bit more of representation.
Nowadays even those last ones (catalonian independentists) are being quiet as Madrid gave them 3 billion € in fundings. The majority of the people of Catalonia doesn't want to hear nothing about the independence... and in Barcelona, 3/4 of people fully disagree with it. The independence is a smokescreen for the huge corruption of the political party of CiU, as 10 years ago, the same CiU chairman stated that the independence for Catalonia is something old and bad, as Spain and Catalonia are better together. 6 years after saying that he started the message "Catalonia, independence".
Just after the judges started to accuse the old chairman of CiU for corruption. Isn't that suspect? In a dreamy and independent Catalonia, the Spanish judges can't do anything... That's their scope.
But that will not happen never. Simply because Catalonia has never been a state, not even a self-governing region. It was always part of another state, kingdom or region. And also of course, and the most important, because most of Catalonians don't want the independence. Is something stupid, as Catalonia is heavily linked with the other Spanish regions in exports, industry, companies...
No, that's not what I am saying. What I am saying is Madrid is not interested in whether Catalonian people want to be independent or not, and explicitly said it will not respect whatever referendum on independence.
How many Catalonians really want to separate is a different matter, and your polls really mean nothing nowadays. Someone else can go get another poll showing 56% want independence, who should I believe?
My point is while it is fair to say it is up for the people in Ceuta to decide whether they want to be Spanish, Madrid should also let Canalonian people to decide so too. You can't use double standard. So far, it has no intention to.
By the strictest definition of 'historical claim', a signed agreement is the very definition thereof.
Whether right or wrong is another matter, but it is a documented, written evidence of claim of territory.
In terms of right of precedence, Spain's African cities have passed between Carthaginian, Gothic, Berber, Byzantine, Islamic, and European powers for literally thousands of years, and have been Iberian since the 15th century.
Really? Signed agreement? Does it apply to situations where country A and B sign an agreement on who should own country C, when people of country C aren't allowed to have a voice?
A document written evidence? By whom? according to whose law? And who is in a position to interpret them? All a handful of western countries I suppose?
My point is while it is fair to say it is up for the people in Ceuta to decide whether they want to be Spanish, Madrid should also let Canalonian people to decide so too. You can't use double standard. So far, it has no intention to.
People from Ceuta and Melilla are very patriotic and they want to be nothing unless Spanish.
Even the moroccans with Spanish citizenship want to be in Spain.
Ceuta was Spanish a long way before Morocco was a country or a long way before Gibraltar was occupied.
And about Catalonia is the own catalonian people who don't want a referendum. This is no Scotland, Catalonia has never been independent. The only ones who want that are the pro-independence and they are not the majority.
In fact in the "referendum" they maded a couple of years ago where all of the independentists voted, they even didn't manage to get 2 million yes votes and the kids +16 yo could also vote. All of the pro-independence voted so it was less than 1/3 of the population...
The last regional elections of Catalonia also shown how 54% of votes went to non-independent parties...
People from Ceuta and Melilla are very patriotic and they want to be nothing unless Spanish.
Even the moroccans with Spanish citizenship want to be in Spain.
Ceuta was Spanish a long way before Morocco was a country or a long way before Gibraltar was occupied.
And about Catalonia is the own catalonian people who don't want a referendum. This is no Scotland, Catalonia has never been independent. The only ones who want that are the pro-independence and they are not the majority.
In fact in the "referendum" they maded a couple of years ago where all of the independentists voted, they even didn't manage to get 2 million yes votes and the kids +16 yo could also vote. All of the pro-independence voted so it was less than 1/3 of the population...
The last regional elections of Catalonia also shown how 54% of votes went to non-independent parties...
It is not about percentage of votes. It is about Madrid
Acting Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has refused to consider any measures that could help Catalonia, which accounts for almost a fifth of Spanish economic output, to hold a legally binding referendum. His government said in July it would seek criminal charges against the speaker of the Catalan parliament for allowing its lawmakers to vote for independence.
Acting Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has refused to consider any measures that could help Catalonia, which accounts for almost a fifth of Spanish economic output, to hold a legally binding referendum. His government said in July it would seek criminal charges against the speaker of the Catalan parliament for allowing its lawmakers to vote for independence.
I knew that someone will mentione Catalonia. But why? Which is the relationship?
I don't know the relationship between Catalonia and Gibraltar
Catalonia is a Spanish de facto region, while Scotland is a nation which is inside of the UK. You should be worried about that better... and returning to the thread, Gibraltar is occupied and legally it had to be returned. Again, as I said before I don't care about a little piece of rock and the controversy was maded by The Sun, a newspaper known for it's BS. I didn't see Rajoy or the King of Spain talking about Gibraltar.
British people should be worried about Scotland as the Scottish government was clear if the UK would leave EU.
And even the regional president of Catalonia now has calmed down as Madrid approved an additional founding of 3 billion € to Catalonia. That 2nd news article you posted was from September of 2016, the things changed much...
Really? Signed agreement? Does it apply to situations where country A and B sign an agreement on who should own country C, when people of country C aren't allowed to have a voice?
A document written evidence? By whom? according to whose law? And who is in a position to interpret them? All a handful of western countries I suppose?
All of you questions are valid, but they do not obviate the definition of the term "historical claim" which, as I posited in my post, is not mutually exclusive to 'right' or 'just'.
Are you being deliberately obtuse or just skimming through posts?
All of you questions are valid, but they do not obviate the definition of the term "historical claim" which, as I posited in my post, is not mutually exclusive to 'right' or 'just'.
Are you being deliberately obtuse or just skimming through posts?
You should know signed agreements are only valid for cultures that value such a legal system. Many cultures do not as different people understand things very differently. You can't arrogantly assume signed legal documents are the ultimate abitrator.
This happened between Europeans and American Indians, and elsewhere too.
It should be up to the people of Gibraltar to decide their future they chose the UK and, although Brexit has changed a lot, I still think they want to remain. Although the freedom of movement in Gibraltar is very important to their economy that could cause problems.
If they are UK, they are not EU. As such, Spain has every right to regulate access to a non-EEC territory from Spanish territory. Visas will be needed. No freedom of mouvement. It would be as if Texas or Southern Florida were to become nations not belonging to the union.
it's not a question of Spain, it's a question of EU versus UK so all that crap appearing on tabloids are just for morons.
They will be treated in a more strict way that Moroccans, as there are tons of preferential treatments with Morocco, they are important against terror and most agricultural industry in Morocco or a large part is Spanish.
Spain will have to ask EU countries with borders with Russia, etc.
Last edited by karstic; 04-10-2017 at 06:18 AM..
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