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I haven't noticed any massacres of Catalans by other Spaniards, which was the biggest catalyst why the international community came to the conclusion that Kosovo cannot continue to be a part of Serbia anymore.
Spain again has been very consistent on the issue. It does not recognise Kosovo.
Catalonia has been invaded many times....mostly from France.
I'll try to remember...
5th century - Visigoths in Septimania invaded Roman Spain entering through Catalonia, that at that time was part of a Roman province called Tarraconensis.
8th Century - Muslim invasion coming from the south, I would not consider them "Castilian Invasion".
Carolingians - Franks - expelled muslims in the 9th century and abandoned the region in a few decades.
French again in the Crusade against Cathars, 12th century I believe - They killed a Catalan/Aragonese king and invaded modern day Catalonia, and were defeated because they suffered the plague.
French again in the 14th century.
15-16th Century. Collapse provoked by bubonic plague, most of the population was wiped out----not even quorum at the Catalan Parliament, fleet rot away, famine. Region received millions of immigrants from Occitania, from the north.
French invaded French Catalonia in 1640 and later Catalonia, were expelled by Castilian troops. They actually arrived to assimilate all the region but met local resistance and left.
During the Sucession War -an international war between the Hapsburg and Borbons, Catalonia, Valencia and many Spanish areas sided with the Hapsburg and lost.
During the latter decade of the 18th century....French took whatever was left of North Catalonia.
Napoleon, begining of 19th century....Catalonia was one of the Spanish areas that opposed him fiercely, the entire principalty was devastated.
French, 1822 - a large army of French loyalists invaded Spain through Catalonia to reestablish the king, a Borbon.
Spain lived during more than a century of civil wars, coups d'etat, pronuncements, anarchy.
Civil War 1936-39 -as Catalonia was part of the loyalist side, as Madrid and most of Spain, the region was invaded.
Franco, no politics, reindustrialization of Catalonia received 80 percent of state industrial fundings...
1960-1970----Catalonia received millions of Andalusians, etc. to work in industries.
1978 - Democracy - Self-Government.
One of the richest regions in Europe.
French are now peaceful, they only come to buy and as tourists.
Aragon, which included Catalan counties, became federated with Castile in 1492.
Last edited by farinello; 10-09-2017 at 03:43 PM..
Catalonia has been invaded many times....mostly from France.
I'll try to remember...
5th century - Visigoths in Septimania invaded Roman Spain entering through Catalonia, that at that time was part of a Roman province called Tarraconensis.
8th Century - Muslim invasion coming from the south, I would not consider them "Castilian Invasion".
Carolingians - Franks - expelled muslims in the 9th century and abandoned the region in a few decades.
French again in the Crusade against Cathars, 12th century I believe - They killed a Catalan/Aragonese king and invaded modern day Catalonia, and were defeated because they suffered the plague.
French again in the 14th century.
15-16th Century. Collapse provoked by bubonic plague, most of the population was wiped out----not even quorum at the Catalan Parliament, fleet rot away, famine. Region received millions of immigrants from Occitania, from the north.
French invaded French Catalonia in 1640 and later Catalonia, were expelled by Castilian troops. They actually arrived to assimilate all the region but met local resistance and left.
During the Sucession War -an international war between the Hapsburg and Borbons, Catalonia, Valencia and many Spanish areas sided with the Hapsburg and lost.
During the latter decade of the 18th century....French took whatever was left of North Catalonia.
Napoleon, begining of 19th century....Catalonia was one of the Spanish areas that opposed him fiercely, the entire principalty was devastated.
French, 1822 - a large army of French loyalists invaded Spain through Catalonia to reestablish the king, a Borbon.
Spain lived during more than a century of civil wars, coups d'etat, pronuncements, anarchy.
Civil War 1936-39 -as Catalonia was part of the loyalist side, as Madrid and most of Spain, the region was invaded.
Franco, no politics, reindustrialization of Catalonia received 80 percent of state industrial fundings...
1960-1970----Catalonia received millions of Andalusians, etc. to work in industries.
1978 - Democracy - Self-Government.
One of the richest regions in Europe.
French are now peaceful, they only come to buy and as tourists.
Aragon, which included Catalan counties, became federated with Castile in 1492.
Catalonia is not amongst the richest regions of Europe lol. It's not even richer than Madrid since a few years ago, while being a lot bigger and much more populated than Madrid is.
The massacres came from both sides, yet of course the EU only shows one side of the story. Have you heard the Serbia side of the story? I have friends from Serbia and we have coffee only 3 hours ago.
But never mind, you keep believing the EU supports justices and has a consistent principle, if it makes you feel good about yourself.
There is a lot of truth to that. Serbia got the short end of the stick at the end of the war. However, it’s equally important to remember that Serbia was hardly an innocent bystander, like most Serbs would have you believe.
I generally oppose all separatist movements because of geopolitics and I don't see an even more fractured Europe as desirable. I also oppose these movements because they are nothing but low-brow populist hot air who claim that it will be all unicorns and rainbows if the areas get independence. This was the case in the Scottish referendum as well, which I was a staunch opponent of.
I don't think people really realise how much turmoil it would create if you would create new nations from scratch in this very interconnected European reality we live in. UN, OECD, EU, NATO... it's not only by snapping their fingers that these countries suddenly the next day are members of all these organisations.
Additionally me coming from a small country, I can't possibly see that small new insignificant countries like Catalonia and Scotland would fare better as independent instead of as a part of a larger country, of which the other one pulls huge weight in a globalised world.
If I may have a bit of fun with you then...
Then you could understand the hypothetical logic of Finland joining with the other Nordics or even God forbid Russia.
But when it comes to countries which western countries do not particularly love, I guess your position will be different, just like the EU? Do you support Tibet separatism by the way? It is after all under the tyranny of communist China...
I am not automatically in favour of every separatist movement. Far from it.
But I also think it's a bit naïve and even generationally arrogant to think that current total of 200 countries is somehow the perfect magic number. Why not 400? Why not 50? And what is the rationale?
I also don't think that every existing country "deserves" to survive intact (or at all) just because it's there right now.
People like to lecture with historical lessons but if one actually looks at history borders change 100 times more than they remain stable.
Then you could understand the hypothetical logic of Finland joining with the other Nordics or even God forbid Russia.
All in the interest of stability and efficiency?
I'm not talking about merging already independent countries together, but creating new ones of areas that haven't been independent in hundreds of years, or ever, and aren't culturally oppressed in any way.
I would be open for talks about some loose Nordic federation, especially if the EU wasn't there.
I am not automatically in favour of every separatist movement. Far from it.
But I also think it's a bit naïve and even generationally arrogant to think that current total of 200 countries is somehow the perfect magic number. Why not 400? Why not 50? And what is the rationale?
I also don't think that every existing country "deserves" to survive intact (or at all) just because it's there right now.
People like to lecture with historical lessons but if one actually looks at history borders change 100 times more than they remain stable.
I agree with you.
But my point is, the EU should either stay neutral or not. It can't choose to stay neutral when it comes to Spain but eager to support separating of other countries when it suits its need. It is such double standard that disgusts me. If Catalonia is Spain's internal matter, so is Kosovo to Serbia an Tibet to China, and the EU should just shut up as well.
I'm not talking about merging already independent countries together, but creating new ones of areas that haven't been independent in hundreds of years, or ever, and aren't culturally oppressed in any way.
I would be open for talks about some loose Nordic federation, especially if the EU wasn't there.
culturally oppressed is a highly subjective matter, and the west alone shouldn't be the judge of that, especially when it comes to non-western countries. But the fact is, whenever it suits their needs, they always ”find" evidence of cultural oppression, in a highly biased fashion to suit their own narrative.
If Catalonia didn't believe it is oppressed in some way, it wouldn't want to separate in the first place.
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