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Sorry, I couldn't finish it. This is nonsense. It does nothing to explain why Norwegian Child Welfare takes a 3-week old baby from the parents without explanation, for example. And if the authorities feel that corporal punishment is wrong, why not work with the parents, first? How egregious are these cases of "corporal punishment"? Regular beatings are one thing. A swift spank on rare occasion, once a year, say, isn't worth breaking up a family over. Why not, as a preliminary step, require parents to attend parenting classes? Is there such a thing as parenting classes in Norway? What steps do the child welfare authorities take, to first correct the problem?
And btw, it really ticks me off when people who consider themselves authorities on the life and mentality of East Europeans spew nonsensical stereotypes to explain "why they're not like us", or "why they need our help/foreign aid/projects". It's always a bunch of ignorant, patronizing garbage.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 10-26-2018 at 10:37 AM..
Ruth, I don't follow Bodnariu case, because to be honest - I am suspicious myself when it comes to the "religious upbringing of children according to the Bible." And, to be honest, to come to live in a knowingly atheist country, and to insist on "biblical upbringing" of your children is like practically asking for trouble.
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I disagree. First of all, you make it sound as if people deliberately choose an atheist country, as if they have much choice, when their spouse is from that country, and that's where the jobs in the foreign spouse's field are.
Secondly, who said Norway was a known "atheist country"? Some of our Norwegian posters here over the years have said it's a Lutheran country that celebrates all the Christian holidays, even to the point of letting kids out of school for minor holidays (i.e. outside of Xmas and Easter). Thirdly, why would practicing one's religion in any country, especially in the so-called "liberal democratic West", be an issue? How would it cross any immigrant's mind that there would be restrictions, short of extremes, like animal sacrifice or female genital mutilation, or something? Does Norway discriminate against Jews this way, or do conservative Jews know better than to move to Norway?
WTH?! How much is "too much" religion in the household, and how much is ok? And again, how would authorities even know what kind of discipline is used in a family, and what kind of religious study, if any, is taking place in the home? Are they somehow able to install surveillance cameras in the apartments, as soon as a couple has a child? Or are these cases triggered by doctor reports, or school authorities' reports?
But it seems clear, that the system discriminates against children of mixed Norwegian and foreign heritage, for one thing. It also has a problem with religion that's outside the country's heritage bubble. If they're so concerned about some kind of potential child abuse, why aren't they keeping an eye out for victims of alcoholic parents? That doesn't even seem to be on their radar.
I don't think the system discriminate against childen of mixed heritage, I think it is due to other factors.
For instance people who get spouse from abroad are overrepresented in child abuse, families of mixed heritage are more likely to live in small districts, they know more ethnic Norwegians, and Norwegians will hold them to higher standards than immigrants. Because of this it is more likely for mixed families to get reported to barnevernet.
Alcoholic parents do get caught by barnevernet, and it is not overlooked. But Norway is not a surveillance state, it is quite easy to go under the radar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
Why not, as a preliminary step, require parents to attend parenting classes? Is there such a thing as parenting classes in Norway? What steps do the child welfare authorities take, to first correct the problem?
It really depends on where you live. Some places will do exactly what you ask for, other places will take the children immediately. And requiring parents to attend parenting classes is quite normal.
There are definitely good things about the Norwegian barnevernet. The problem is that barnevernet is untouchable and there is no proper debate about negative aspects of barnevernet. During the recent years there has been multiple scandals, and international incidents, but they just report about it or defend barnevernet, and then ignore it. How can you improve a system, when you can't even talk about its failings?
To put it into perspective, barnevernet issue in Norway is a bit similar to the refugee issue in Sweden.
To emphasize my earlier point. Here is the political program from the Red Party and from the Conservative Party. The Red Party believes in communism.
Can you find any disagrements, and which one is the Red Party?
A child welfare center is being built where there are different types of relief measures for children and their families. Through their own measures or through inter-municipal cooperation, there must be a wide range of home-based measures for children and their families.
The law on child welfare services must state that all employees must have broad professional competence. The state must contribute to a competence boost through further education and other training where this is needed.
All children and young people who have offers from the child welfare service must be ensured good follow-up from mental health care and other health services. All children placed outside the home, at the institution or foster home shall be ensured at least six annual follow-up visits by the child welfare service, where the child's voice will be heard and emphasized during follow-up.
The state is responsible for running institutions for children and adolescents. Institutions must be differentiated and based on child and youth needs. The government may, as necessary, enter into an agreement with non-profit organizations on a certain number of guarantee classes.
The municipality, in cooperation with state child welfare, shall be responsible for the recruitment and training of foster homes. Guidance and follow-up of foster homes is a public authority responsibility and can not be transferred to private actors.
Strengthen the principle that the best interests of the child should always be taken into account.
That children's right to conversation, participation and involvement is strengthened within family protection by therapy or cohabitation.
That children's needs are mapped by decision on institutional placement to ensure a correct offer to the child. Emphasis will be placed on professional advice and the child's participation.
Implement a quality and competence lift in municipal child welfare.
Ensure better follow-up of vulnerable children and provide children and families with early help and more equal treatment.
That the family protection should have expertise in the LHBTIQ + child so that parents who want it can get guidance and that LHBTIQ + children receive assistance when caregivers fail.
Promise the right to aftercare for child welfare children.
Ensure coordination of resources put into the children's homes.
Ensure full equal treatment of private, ideal and state actors in child welfare.
Develop measures between the specialist health service and the municipal health service to ensure that children with special needs receive a more comprehensive offer.
Further develop models with multiple measures across the auxiliary system, to provide better follow-up and support for low income families, for example through housing, economy and childcare services, SFO and children's recreational activities
I don't think the system discriminate against childen of mixed heritage, I think it is due to other factors.
For instance people who get spouse from abroad are overrepresented in child abuse, families of mixed heritage are more likely to live in small districts, they know more ethnic Norwegians, and Norwegians will hold them to higher standards than immigrants. Because of this it is more likely for mixed families to get reported to barnevernet.
Alcoholic parents do get caught by barnevernet, and it is not overlooked. But Norway is not a surveillance state, it is quite easy to go under the radar.
It really depends on where you live. Some places will do exactly what you ask for, other places will take the children immediately. And requiring parents to attend parenting classes is quite normal.
There are definitely good things about the Norwegian barnevernet. The problem is that barnevernet is untouchable and there is no proper debate about negative aspects of barnevernet. During the recent years there has been multiple scandals, and international incidents, but they just report about it or defend barnevernet, and then ignore it. How can you improve a system, when you can't even talk about its failings?
To put it into perspective, barnevernet issue in Norway is a bit similar to the refugee issue in Sweden.
Thank you for a thoughtful and informative reply. This was helpful.
Sorry, I couldn't finish it. This is nonsense. It does nothing to explain why Norwegian Child Welfare takes a 3-week old baby from the parents without explanation, for example. And if the authorities feel that corporal punishment is wrong, why not work with the parents, first? How egregious are these cases of "corporal punishment"? Regular beatings are one thing. A swift spank on rare occasion, once a year, say, isn't worth breaking up a family over. Why not, as a preliminary step, require parents to attend parenting classes? Is there such a thing as parenting classes in Norway? What steps do the child welfare authorities take, to first correct the problem?
And btw, it really ticks me off when people who consider themselves authorities on the life and mentality of East Europeans spew nonsensical stereotypes to explain "why they're not like us", or "why they need our help/foreign aid/projects". It's always a bunch of ignorant, patronizing garbage.
Oh, so sensitive. I think you have an EE bias. You can find plenty of articles about the CPS in Norwegian. Just use Google.
The issue isn't about Barnevern being controversial i Polen, or anywhere else in the East. If it were some kind of E European PR problem, EU human rights bodies would't be examining it, and taking it on as a case. The first article you linked mentioned protests in Brazil. How does that relate to politics in Poland or Russia? Don't you find it odd that "experts" are nattering on about Poland and Russia, instead of actually discussing the issues? Or trying to explain why the EU Courts of Human Rights is taking up the issue?
Accept the fact that Bernevernet sometimes oversteps its bounds, and since it acts independently, and doesn't require a court order to remove kids from their families, IOW there are no restraints built into the system, abuses of power happen, mistakes happen. Some kind of oversight or reform isn't a bad idea, and the EU Court of Human Rights feels the same way. This has nothing to do with Russia. To drag Russia and Poland into it, is to deflect attention from the problem. I fail to see how they're relevant.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 10-27-2018 at 11:05 AM..
The issue isn't about Barnevern being controversial i Polen, or anywhere else in the East. If it were some kind of E European PR problem, EU human rights bodies would't be examining it, and taking it on as a case. The first article you linked mentioned protests in Brazil. How does that relate to politics in Poland or Russia? Don't you find it odd that "experts" are nattering on about Poland and Russia, instead of actually discussing the issues? Or trying to explain why the EU Courts of Human Rights is taking up the issue?
Accept the fact that Bernevernet sometimes oversteps its bounds, and since it acts independently, and doesn't require a court order to remove kids from their families, IOW there are no restraints built into the system, abuses of power happen, mistakes happen. Some kind of oversight or reform isn't a bad idea, and the EU Court of Human Rights feels the same way. This has nothing to do with Russia. To drag Russia and Poland into it, is to deflect attention from the problem. I fail to see how they're relevant.
Well, it is. The majority of complaints come from EE immigrants, hence the all the hate and weird conspiracy theories circulating in EE media. Of course you will find complaints from parents in Brazil and India but they are few and far between compared to the massive outcry from EE parents. Over 130k Poles and Lithuanians live in Norway.
The Norwegian CPS is far from perfect but the criticism is overblown. ECHR has ruled in favor of the CPS in three out four cases so far.
ECHR has nothing to do with the EU. Its members include Russia, Georgia and Azerbaijan.
Well, it is. The majority of complaints come from EE immigrants, hence the all the hate and weird conspiracy theories circulating in EE media. Of course you will find complaints from parents in Brazil and India but they are few and far between compared to the massive outcry from EE parents. Over 130k Poles and Lithuanians live in Norway.
The Norwegian CPS is far from perfect but the criticism is overblown. ECHR has ruled in favor of the CPS in three out four cases so far.
ECHR has nothing to do with the EU. Its members include Russia, Georgia and Azerbaijan.
That's weird. Why are Easterners' kids being taken from them? More info needed.
BTW, are some of these kids being raised bilingually? It's common in the US. There are community cultural organizations, some affiliated with the church, others not, that run an after-school or weekend "school" for the Russian or Polish or Serbian kids, to teach them reading, writing, history and culture in their own language. I'm just curious.
And btw, it's still a bogus explanation, all that political theorizing, discussions about E European culture being a "collective" one, vs. individualist or nuclear-family-oriented, blah blah. IMO the issue mainly is about the fact that Russian, and I assume Polish, culture has always been very child-centric, very devoted to children in ways I haven't seen or experienced in Anglo-Germanic cultures, generally speaking. So the idea of taking children away from their parents is unthinkable. This is what Norway's up against, IMO. it is doing the unthinkable.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 10-27-2018 at 02:31 PM..
I disagree. First of all, you make it sound as if people deliberately choose an atheist country, as if they have much choice, when their spouse is from that country, and that's where the jobs in the foreign spouse's field are.
I am not sure about the whole Bodnariu's situation, but once realizing what kind of situation you are in, it makes sense to MOVE somewhere, where practicing foreign religion is more easily accepted.
Quote:
Secondly, who said Norway was a known "atheist country"? Some of our Norwegian posters here over the years have said it's a Lutheran country that celebrates all the Christian holidays, even to the point of letting kids out of school for minor holidays (i.e. outside of Xmas and Easter).
There is difference I suppose between "cultural Christianity" ( which most of Northern European countries are) and "practicing Christianity."
With other words, there is a difference between celebrating Christmas/Easter and "raising your children according to the Bible's principles." ( If you are telling me that Norway has minor religious holidays, I need more info on that, since the Public holidays in Norway are listed as following;
Thirdly, why would practicing one's religion in any country, especially in the so-called "liberal democratic West", be an issue? How would it cross any immigrant's mind that there would be restrictions, short of extremes, like animal sacrifice or female genital mutilation, or something?
Because "practicing" one's religion in the Old World countries is not as innocent as it might seem from the first glance. See, the old world countries as we know them today ( as actually the New World countries as well) grew and developed around their respective churches ( and specific denominations.) It made them what they are, it became the inseparable part of their national identity. And Lutheran Church is of course different from the Catholic Church; so is Orthodox. AMERICAN protestant churches ( such as Pentecostal Church) differ big time too, up to a point that many consider them to be sectarian. And that's the church Bodnariu family happened to belong to.
Quote:
Does Norway discriminate against Jews this way, or do conservative Jews know better than to move to Norway?
WTH?! How much is "too much" religion in the household, and how much is ok? And again, how would authorities even know what kind of discipline is used in a family, and what kind of religious study, if any, is taking place in the home? Are they somehow able to install surveillance cameras in the apartments, as soon as a couple has a child? Or are these cases triggered by doctor reports, or school authorities' reports?
More info needed.
Indeed more info needed, and in no way I am saying that the Barnevernet was right. But as I've said in this particular case, these people put themselves into the risk zone, being not just "ethnically different," but "culturally different" as well.
Last edited by erasure; 10-28-2018 at 01:16 PM..
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