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From what I understand immigration from the Middle East is something that has angered the protesters. Seems like terrorists are intentionally trying to stir the pot in France. Remember these people actually want to start a holy war. They have the mentality of people living in the 12th century.
I don't see the relationship between immigration from the middle east (which is fairly limited in France, actually very low even) and the way the government deals with energy taxes. Also the terrorist was born in France.
If anything, moving towards green energy will eventually limit the need for fossil fuels from the middle east. The protesters probably need more middle east then.
There is a fairly generalized social climate of tension in France right now.
Under those conditions it is always possible that people who are unstable to begin with are more likely to be triggered, for motivations that have nothing to do with protests like those of the Gilets Jaunes.
Yeah, that might be a factor. Just like 2015/2016 saw a lot of terrorist events and then it all calmed down afterwards.
I don't see the relationship between immigration from the middle east (which is fairly limited in France, actually very low even) .
I think that when Americans (and also some other nationalities) talk about people from the ''Middle East", they're including people with origins in North Africa/Maghreb too. Of which there are a lot in France.
I think that when Americans (and also some other nationalities) talk about people from the ''Middle East", they're including people with origins in North Africa/Maghreb too. Of which there are a lot in France.
Yes this is true. I realize this is not geographically correct as North Africa is not the Middle East. I should have said people from the Muslim world. My point was that everything I have read about the immigration crisis in Europe is that some people, maybe a lot of people over there are angry about there being too much unchecked immigration from Muslim countries. It is reported that Europeans are worried about their cultures being diluted and they are angry about all the terrorism that comes with having a lot of Muslim people living in your country. There are also stories about Muslim immigrants not assimilating and establishing insular communities in parts of Europe. Are these stories accurate?
Thank you Ackajack for clearing this up. I do need to be more careful about my geographic descriptions in my posts. What I said was incorrect, you being a fellow North American understood but our European friends would not.
Yes this is true. I realize this is not geographically correct as North Africa is not the Middle East. I should have said people from the Muslim world. My point was that everything I have read about the immigration crisis in Europe is that some people, maybe a lot of people over there are angry about there being too much unchecked immigration from Muslim countries. It is reported that Europeans are worried about their cultures being diluted and they are angry about all the terrorism that comes with having a lot of Muslim people living in your country. There are also stories about Muslim immigrants not assimilating and establishing insular communities in parts of Europe. Are these stories accurate?
I am fairly well plugged-in to goings-on in Europe (especially France) so I do have my own opinion, but I won't answer for the people who actually live there.
Yes this is true. I realize this is not geographically correct as North Africa is not the Middle East. I should have said people from the Muslim world. My point was that everything I have read about the immigration crisis in Europe is that some people, maybe a lot of people over there are angry about there being too much unchecked immigration from Muslim countries. It is reported that Europeans are worried about their cultures being diluted and they are angry about all the terrorism that comes with having a lot of Muslim people living in your country. There are also stories about Muslim immigrants not assimilating and establishing insular communities in parts of Europe. Are these stories accurate?
Thank you Ackajack for clearing this up. I do need to be more careful about my geographic descriptions in my posts. What I said was incorrect, you being a fellow North American understood but our European friends would not.
Generally you are right. There is resentment and anger fuelling up due to diverse factors, whether justified or not it is not the lieu where to discuss it, but these points are:
1) Unfettered immigration: now, one can say whatever he wants about borders, not being unchecked, it remains that in less than 30 years extra-European populace has gone from negligible percentages (close to 0 % in Italy) to 3-5 % and more (just considering non-Europeans). During the 1980s in Italy there were barely any foreigner who was not either a tourist or an international student, now we got 700,000 African illegal immigrants coming in just a few years by boat. I am not expressing any judgement, I am just stating the reality. Both sides then exaggerate in the inverse: far-right extremists blow out of proportion numbers, while leftists try to minimise and using empty slogans.
2) Globalisation has been destroying the traditional economies of Europe: outsourcing has severely damaged manufacturing, people in their 40s-50s can barely keep up with digitalisation, wages have been stagnant since the 1990s and unemployment has risen. Add to this the folly of the Euro, austerity and an inept political class (especially in Italy, most of Europe does not fare that well either, see Hollande a few years ago) and you get the picture of a continent that has not been growing and has seeing wealth being increasingly distributed to the 1%.
These two factors have given rise to the rebirth of nationalist parties all across Europe: ten years ago it would have been unthinkable to have AfD reaching 12%, now it seems the natural consequence of what has been done in the last decades. Here people barely tolerated Albanians and Romanians, who mostly fit quite well being white and who integrate, how can you expect people to be tolerant of hundreds thousands foreigners when wages have been stagnant for decades, unemployment is skyrocketing, there is no long-term stability of jobs and births are well below the replacement level?
Add to this terrorism, ghettoes (especially in France and Sweden but also the UK and, partly, Germany) and non-integrated generations of immigrants and you get the picture of why Europeans are increasingly fed up.
Give people job, decent wages, possibility to start a family, own a house and a decent work-life balance and you will see that people become much more welcoming.
Yes this is true. I realize this is not geographically correct as North Africa is not the Middle East. I should have said people from the Muslim world. My point was that everything I have read about the immigration crisis in Europe is that some people, maybe a lot of people over there are angry about there being too much unchecked immigration from Muslim countries. It is reported that Europeans are worried about their cultures being diluted and they are angry about all the terrorism that comes with having a lot of Muslim people living in your country. There are also stories about Muslim immigrants not assimilating and establishing insular communities in parts of Europe. Are these stories accurate?
Thank you Ackajack for clearing this up. I do need to be more careful about my geographic descriptions in my posts. What I said was incorrect, you being a fellow North American understood but our European friends would not.
No worries. While it is true that part of the protesters are politically close to extreme right movements, it is not true of all of them. And I still think this specific movement has little to do with these issues even if some of the protesters probably share this opinion.
As for what you describe, it is a very complicated issue, and I also think so-called insular comunities are also the result of urban policies that have isolated and segregated visible minorities. You can either think this way or think they isolated themselves depending on your political inclinations.
Also, the abandon feeling that the yellow vests express is more compared to the French elites or to the more urban and wealthier French population, I don't think they express anger towards xth generation immigrants, not in that case.
This will not be popular with some people, but part of the problem is also how many immigrants have retained the "old ways" of their country of origin to a significant degree.
I say this regardless of who or what is responsible for this situation. It could be on the one hand that European countries have had segregationist discriminatory practices that have left immigrant groups isolated and poorly integrated. Or it could be that it's also a product of naïve multuculturalist dogma that has people thinking it's soooooooo cool and exotic to have people living not that far away from me here is Paris, London and Stockholm, but much the same as they would in Kandahar...
Regardless of the reason, it's become a huge problem.
This will not be popular with some people, but part of the problem is also how many immigrants have retained the "old ways" of their country of origin to a significant degree.
I say this regardless of who or what is responsible for this situation. It could be on the one hand that European countries have had segregationist discriminatory practices that have left immigrant groups isolated and poorly integrated. Or it could be that it's also a product of naïve multuculturalist dogma that has people thinking it's soooooooo cool and exotic to have people living not that far away Paris, London and Stockholm much the same as they would in Kandahar...
Regardless of the reason, it's become a huge problem.
I don't know, when it comes to the case of muslims of north african origin in France, in general I would say that the cultural differences have increased in the last 20 years. When I was in high school in the 90s, it felt like there were fewer differences. I never saw any young muslim man wearing traditional clothing. I would only see older men doing it. Now it's become very common in some areas. Some would say it's because of them, but I would say it's also because of an evolution of French society.
I also believe people who grew up in France in the 1960s of north african origin have less a tendancy to follow the rules of their religions, compared to younger people now.
I think this shift is also the result of the fact that in the 1960s integration was more possible than it is now. Religion is the only shelter for many young people who know they'll never be accepted as they are.
I don't know, when it comes to the case of muslims of north african origin in France, in general I would say that the cultural differences have increased in the last 20 years. When I was in high school in the 90s, it felt like there were fewer differences. I never saw any young muslim man wearing traditional clothing. I would only see older men doing it. Now it's become very common in some areas. Some would say it's because of them, but I would say it's also because of an evolution of French society.
I also believe people who grew up in France in the 1960s of north african origin have less a tendancy to follow the rules of their religions, compared to younger people now.
I think this shift is also the result of the fact that in the 1960s integration was more possible than it is now. Religion is the only shelter for many young people who know they'll never be accepted as they are.
I think we are pretty much saying and thinking the same thing.
Right now, some people will tell you that it's racist to want immigrants to "become (like the) French", or German, Swedish, whatever.
That's actually a load of bull.
Of course, integrating immigrants properly and fully is a two-way street that requires goodwill and efforts for both immigrants and the host society.
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