Is the Balkans too fragmented ethnically? (best, country, place, Greek)

[shunketsu]

If you look at a map of the world, you will notice that the Balkans is the most divided/fragmented place on the entire planet in terms of so many countries and borders within a (relatively) small geographic space. Additionally, a lot of these divided countries include ethnic groups that are descended from or very closely related to ethnic groups in neighboring countries.

(Note: I am including Romania, Moldova, and Cyprus as part of the Balkans--I know this is controversial but they fit in culturally and ethnically).

Balkan Countries:
- Moldova
- Romania
- Bulgaria
- Greece
- Cyprus
- Turkey
- Macedonia
- Serbia
- Kosovo
- Albania
- Montenegro
- Bosnia & Herzegovina
- Croatia

Balkan Ethnic Groups:
- Romanians and Moldovans (ethnic "Moldovans" were traditionally Romanian/Vlach and basically speak the same language)
- Bulgarians and Macedonians (ethnic "Macedonians" were traditionally Bulgarian before the Balkan Wars and the languages are mutually intelligible, based on two dialects of the same Southeast Slavic continuum)
- Greece and Cypriots (Cypriots identify as Greek, except the Turks who occupy the northern third)
- Albanians and Kosovars (most Kosovars identify as Albanian--there is also a major Albanian minority in Macedonia)
- Serbs, Bosnian Serbs, and Montenegrins (ethnic "Montenegrins" are basically Serbs, and the language is basically the same with Montenegrin nationalists trying to make up new differences)
- Bosniaks (the only Slavic ethnic group that is predominantly Muslim)
- Croats and Bosnian Croats (both Roman Catholic)

I am completely aware of the political situation in the Balkans and how messed up it is, and I know unification is currently a ridiculous pipedream. But I wonder if some day (maybe in 100 years?) the Balkans can become more united instead of divided, fragmented, and weak. All these small countries that are divided keep the region at the mercy of superpowers (Russia, EU, USA, Turkey, etc.) with special interests.

If that could ever happen, and yes I know this is completely wishful thinking, I think:

- Moldova should unite with Romania, except for Transnistria
- Macedonia should unite with Bulgaria, except for the western parts that are Albanian-majority
- Cyprus should unite with Greece (don't know what to do about the illegal Turkish-controlled part)
- Kosovo and the Albanian-majority parts of Macedonia should unite with Albania (sorry Serbia, I know Kosovo is vital to your history, but you're not going to be able to get rid of the Albanians there, and other countries have important historical places that are outside of their borders)
- Montenegro and Republika Srpska (except for the parts that are too gerrymandered with Bosniak and Croat populations) should unite with Serbia
- The Bosnian Croats who live on the Adriatic should unite with Croatia
- The Bosniaks can retain a smaller, independent Bosnia in the central region of the current "Bosnia & Herzegovina" with Sarajevo still as their capital

Remaining Countries:
Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia
Remaining Capitals:
Bucharest, Sofia, Athens, Ankara, Tirana, Belgrade, Sarajevo, Zagreb

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by shunketsu

If you look at a map of the world, you will notice that the Balkans is the most divided/fragmented place on the entire planet in terms of so many countries and borders within a (relatively) small geographic space. Additionally, a lot of these divided countries include ethnic groups that are descended from or very closely related to ethnic groups in neighboring countries.

(Note: I am including Romania, Moldova, and Cyprus as part of the Balkans--I know this is controversial but they fit in culturally and ethnically).

Balkan Countries:
- Moldova
- Romania
- Bulgaria
- Greece
- Cyprus
- Turkey
- Macedonia
- Serbia
- Kosovo
- Albania
- Montenegro
- Bosnia & Herzegovina
- Croatia

Balkan Ethnic Groups:
- Romanians and Moldovans (ethnic "Moldovans" were traditionally Romanian/Vlach and basically speak the same language)
- Bulgarians and Macedonians (ethnic "Macedonians" were traditionally Bulgarian before the Balkan Wars and the languages are mutually intelligible, based on two dialects of the same Southeast Slavic continuum)
- Greece and Cypriots (Cypriots identify as Greek, except the Turks who occupy the northern third)
- Albanians and Kosovars (most Kosovars identify as Albanian--there is also a major Albanian minority in Macedonia)
- Serbs, Bosnian Serbs, and Montenegrins (ethnic "Montenegrins" are basically Serbs, and the language is basically the same with Montenegrin nationalists trying to make up new differences)
- Bosniaks (the only Slavic ethnic group that is predominantly Muslim)
- Croats and Bosnian Croats (both Roman Catholic)

I am completely aware of the political situation in the Balkans and how messed up it is, and I know unification is currently a ridiculous pipedream. But I wonder if some day (maybe in 100 years?) the Balkans can become more united instead of divided, fragmented, and weak. All these small countries that are divided keep the region at the mercy of superpowers (Russia, EU, USA, Turkey, etc.) with special interests.

If that could ever happen, and yes I know this is completely wishful thinking, I think:

- Moldova should unite with Romania, except for Transnistria
- Macedonia should unite with Bulgaria, except for the western parts that are Albanian-majority
- Cyprus should unite with Greece (don't know what to do about the illegal Turkish-controlled part)
- Kosovo and the Albanian-majority parts of Macedonia should unite with Albania (sorry Serbia, I know Kosovo is vital to your history, but you're not going to be able to get rid of the Albanians there, and other countries have important historical places that are outside of their borders)
- Montenegro and Republika Srpska (except for the parts that are too gerrymandered with Bosniak and Croat populations) should unite with Serbia
- The Bosnian Croats who live on the Adriatic should unite with Croatia
- The Bosniaks can retain a smaller, independent Bosnia in the central region of the current "Bosnia & Herzegovina" with Sarajevo still as their capital

Remaining Countries:
Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia
Remaining Capitals:
Bucharest, Sofia, Athens, Ankara, Tirana, Belgrade, Sarajevo, Zagreb

Are you aware that several of those nations were forcibly unified under Tito, in the nation-state of Yugoslavia? It didn't work out. Also, take a look at the Caucasus; it's a similarly Balkanized area, in a smaller area, though each country still has ethnic minorities, and some may break up into smaller pieces. Time will tell what happens there.

[Davy-040]

The only part of Turkey that is part of the Balkans/Europe is Thrace.
Why not take Thrace from Turkey and give it to Bulgaria/Greece?

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by Davy-040

The only part of Turkey that is part of the Balkans/Europe is Thrace.
Why not take Thrace from Turkey and give it to Bulgaria/Greece?

Yeah, why not wave a wand and re-configure the map on whim? That would work.

[Ariete]

Originally Posted by shunketsu

- Moldova should unite with Romania, except for Transnistria
- Macedonia should unite with Bulgaria, except for the western parts that are Albanian-majority
- Cyprus should unite with Greece (don't know what to do about the illegal Turkish-controlled part)
- Kosovo and the Albanian-majority parts of Macedonia should unite with Albania (sorry Serbia, I know Kosovo is vital to your history, but you're not going to be able to get rid of the Albanians there, and other countries have important historical places that are outside of their borders)
- Montenegro and Republika Srpska (except for the parts that are too gerrymandered with Bosniak and Croat populations) should unite with Serbia
- The Bosnian Croats who live on the Adriatic should unite with Croatia
- The Bosniaks can retain a smaller, independent Bosnia in the central region of the current "Bosnia & Herzegovina" with Sarajevo still as their capital

Romanians support the idea, 65% of Moldovans do not.
Cyprus uniting with Greece would mean war with Turkey.
Kosovo might some day unite with Albania, would probably result in war with Serbia.
Montenegro is 12 years old. I don't think they have any interest in rejoining Serbia.
Republika Srpska already tried, resulted in war.
HRHB already tried, resulted in war.

All these would probably result in ethnic cleansing.

And where did Slovenia go? Already absorbed by Croatia? No, neither one wants that.

I would rather get used to all the different countries instead of daydreaming about impossible things.

[euro123]

No they are not. London looks like UN convention in comparison and no one considers it "diverse" because that will be racist...yet in the Balkans you have 3 races and that's diverse 0_0?

Greeks are white, just tanned. Macedonia and Bulgaria are the same and all the Yugos are Slavs. So even if you try really hard you have: Slavs, Macedonia/Bulgaria, Romania, Greece. Out of 50 million population.

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by euro123

No they are not. London looks like UN convention in comparison and no one considers it "diverse" because that will be racist...yet in the Balkans you have 3 races and that's diverse 0_0?

.

Why is it racist to call a population "diverse" if it's true?

[Ummagumma]

Originally Posted by Ariete

Romanians support the idea, 65% of Moldovans do not.
Cyprus uniting with Greece would mean war with Turkey.
Kosovo might some day unite with Albania, would probably result in war with Serbia.
Montenegro is 12 years old. I don't think they have any interest in rejoining Serbia.
Republika Srpska already tried, resulted in war.
HRHB already tried, resulted in war.

All these would probably result in ethnic cleansing.

And where did Slovenia go? Already absorbed by Croatia? No, neither one wants that.

I would rather get used to all the different countries instead of daydreaming about impossible things.

"Reuniting" any post-Soviet republic with another country would be problematic since I believe all of them still have significant Russian populations who would undoubtedly object to this.

And in the former Yugoslavia, you have the religious tensions (not just Christians vs Muslims but more like Greek Orthodox vs Catholic vs Muslim) on top of ethnic tensions.

I think keeping them separate is the best recipe for long term peace.

[Ruth4Truth]

[quote=Ummagumma;45372984
I think keeping them separate is the best recipe for long term peace.[/quote] Certainly. This is the essence of self-determination.

[Ottawa2011]

I have no issue with it, as long as they aren't at war with each other. Holding a large part of the region together as "Yugoslavia" didn't work out, even after several decades.