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Old 04-28-2009, 04:25 PM
 
549 posts, read 1,123,055 times
Reputation: 234

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I am a dual citizen Venezuelan/U.S. American. My fiancee is Venezuelan/Italian (born in Caracas and daughter of two Italians immigrants that moved to Venezuela in the 60s, she has both passports EuroItalian/Venezuelan).

Now... If we get married and move to Italy, I will be able to acquire the EuroItalian citizenship after 6 months.


How would you compare the quality of life in Italy versus the quality of life in USa

I dont have a $$$ reason to move overseas, since I make almost $50,000 a year (I am a 26 year old secondary teacher) and she makes $35,000 (she is 29).

Our main reason is to live in an environment were family values, culture, and friends would be the priorities in our lives and the people around us. I believe that Europeans, specially Italians seem to be more family oriented compared to U.S. Americans who have $$$ as their most important priority.


Now, any info about Italy would be greatly apreciated...

How Italians treat legal immigrants??

What is the minimum wage in Italy??

What is the quality of life in Central/Southern Italy compared to USA?

Are 2 minimum wages in Italy enough to have a decent life there. (Apartment/rent, food, basic expenses and the ability to maybe save a few euros monthly)????

Do Italians MUST own a vehicle in order to commute to and from work???? in Miami you must OWN a car.... the public transportation is terrible.


Which Italian cities would you recommend....

Thanks in advance for the info....


Last edited by Eduardo983; 04-28-2009 at 04:35 PM..

 
Old 04-28-2009, 08:22 PM
 
4,285 posts, read 10,310,142 times
Reputation: 3695
The big question might be: Do you speak Italian?

Regardless of what country one moves to, lack of proficiency in the local language will drastically reduce opportunities.
 
Old 04-28-2009, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Not where you ever lived
10,848 posts, read 15,012,178 times
Reputation: 5372
First of all few Americans love money more than family. It's a misconception. Secondly if family is so important, why move to Italy?

The Italian families I knew when I lived in Chicago were as gracious as any people you want to meet. They did not forget the homeland, they were very family orientated. Their children and their children's children were bi-lingual.
 
Old 04-28-2009, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Brookfield, Illinois
284 posts, read 542,052 times
Reputation: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornerguy1 View Post
The big question might be: Do you speak Italian?
If they speak Spanish, picking up Italian will be like nothing. I say, if you can live in Italy, WHY NOT.
 
Old 04-29-2009, 02:39 AM
 
Location: western East Roman Empire
3,827 posts, read 6,062,153 times
Reputation: 2480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo983 View Post

If we get married and move to Italy, I will be able to acquire the EuroItalian citizenship after 6 months?

How would you compare the quality of life in Italy versus the quality of life in USA?

I don't have a $$$ reason to move overseas, since I make almost $50,000 a year (I am a 26 year old secondary teacher) and she makes $35,000 (she is 29).

Now, any info about Italy would be greatly appreciated...

How Italians treat legal immigrants??

What is the minimum wage in Italy??

What is the quality of life in Central/Southern Italy compared to USA?

Are 2 minimum wages in Italy enough to have a decent life there. (Apartment/rent, food, basic expenses and the ability to maybe save a few euros monthly)????

Do Italians MUST own a vehicle in order to commute to and from work???? in Miami you must OWN a car.... the public transportation is terrible.


Which Italian cities would you recommend....

Thanks in advance for the info....

In my view, the US offers a better life if you have your own business or are a high level executive, maybe a high level profession. For the relatively unambitious, Italy and Europe in general may offer a better life in cultural terms, but maybe not.

Generally speaking, Italians, especially northern and central Italians, are at the least tolerant of foreigners, if not curious, welcoming, and patient with language issues, if any. As an American and an Italian citizen, respectively, you should have no problem in the south either.

Unfortunately, the chances of finding minimum wage jobs are inversely proportional to the cost of living. In other words, you are more likely to find minimum wage jobs in Milan - where, by the way, public transport is generally very good, and you wouldn't need a car -, but the cost of living (rent, utilities, etc.) is more comparable to NYC, SF, Tokyo, London, etc. than to, say, Miami, or some provincial town.

I would tend to include the regions of Emilia Romagna (Reggio Emilia, Parma, Bologna, Modena) and Tuscany (Florence) in northern Italy.

It would be extremely difficult to find even a minimum wage job in southern Italy. The pace of life is slower, the quality of life may be better, but maybe not, and public transportation is not as deeply penetrating as in a city like Milan or Rome.

There is no way that you will be granted citizenship after only six months. Most likely there will be a naturalization process, like everywhere else in the world, as a minimum I would venture to guess it would take at least three years. In the meantime, however, you could apply for a permesso di soggiorno as someone married to a citizen. However, I assume that, like in most other countries, your wife, or her family in Italy, would have to demonstrate means of support and sign onto a long-term commitment.

If your wife no longer has any family in Italy who are willing to help, I think it would be very difficult to pick a city, more or less at random, and look for jobs, though not impossible. You can stay in the country for three months without a visa and start looking for opportunities (I use the term loosely).

What does your wife do for a living? Where is her family from? You could conceivably teach Spanish in a language school, but the pay would be low, maybe you could augment it with private lessons to individuals and companies. The chances of landing a public secondary school position are next to nil.

Again, most likely you would find employment in cities that are least affordable, like Milan, Turin, Rome, and, generally speaking, cities in the north rather than in the central or south. For teaching Spanish, Verona and Bologna are also worthy of mention, maybe Perugia in the region of Umbria.

Again, if your wife still has contact with family in Italy and they are willing to help, that would be your best bet for starters.

Personally, if I could pick a region or city based on cultural interest, it would be Rome and the region of Lazio to start, Venice and coastal Veneto, eastern Sicily (Messina to Syracuse), Lecce and southeastern Apulia, maybe some other areas of Adriatic Italy (Ravenna, the Marche region, L'Aquila, where the earthquake recently struck, is, or was, beautiful), but that's just me.

Good luck!

Last edited by bale002; 04-29-2009 at 02:48 AM..
 
Old 04-29-2009, 05:18 AM
 
549 posts, read 1,123,055 times
Reputation: 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by bale002 View Post
In my view, the US offers a better life if you have your own business or are a high level executive, maybe a high level profession. For the relatively unambitious, Italy and Europe in general may offer a better life in cultural terms, but maybe not.

Generally speaking, Italians, especially northern and central Italians, are at the least tolerant of foreigners, if not curious, welcoming, and patient with language issues, if any. As an American and an Italian citizen, respectively, you should have no problem in the south either.

Unfortunately, the chances of finding minimum wage jobs are inversely proportional to the cost of living. In other words, you are more likely to find minimum wage jobs in Milan - where, by the way, public transport is generally very good, and you wouldn't need a car -, but the cost of living (rent, utilities, etc.) is more comparable to NYC, SF, Tokyo, London, etc. than to, say, Miami, or some provincial town.

I would tend to include the regions of Emilia Romagna (Reggio Emilia, Parma, Bologna, Modena) and Tuscany (Florence) in northern Italy.

It would be extremely difficult to find even a minimum wage job in southern Italy. The pace of life is slower, the quality of life may be better, but maybe not, and public transportation is not as deeply penetrating as in a city like Milan or Rome.

There is no way that you will be granted citizenship after only six months. Most likely there will be a naturalization process, like everywhere else in the world, as a minimum I would venture to guess it would take at least three years. In the meantime, however, you could apply for a permesso di soggiorno as someone married to a citizen. However, I assume that, like in most other countries, your wife, or her family in Italy, would have to demonstrate means of support and sign onto a long-term commitment.

If your wife no longer has any family in Italy who are willing to help, I think it would be very difficult to pick a city, more or less at random, and look for jobs, though not impossible. You can stay in the country for three months without a visa and start looking for opportunities (I use the term loosely).

What does your wife do for a living? Where is her family from? You could conceivably teach Spanish in a language school, but the pay would be low, maybe you could augment it with private lessons to individuals and companies. The chances of landing a public secondary school position are next to nil.

Again, most likely you would find employment in cities that are least affordable, like Milan, Turin, Rome, and, generally speaking, cities in the north rather than in the central or south. For teaching Spanish, Verona and Bologna are also worthy of mention, maybe Perugia in the region of Umbria.

Again, if your wife still has contact with family in Italy and they are willing to help, that would be your best bet for starters.

Personally, if I could pick a region or city based on cultural interest, it would be Rome and the region of Lazio to start, Venice and coastal Veneto, eastern Sicily (Messina to Syracuse), Lecce and southeastern Apulia, maybe some other areas of Adriatic Italy (Ravenna, the Marche region, L'Aquila, where the earthquake recently struck, is, or was, beautiful), but that's just me.

Good luck!

Many thanks for your feedback

Well, her family is from Comiso (Sicily) Comiso - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia but she does not speak Italian and has never visited her relatives (Great-Aunts and Great-Uncles) in Italy.

We saved 34,100 Euros ($45,000 USD)... would that be enough money (Rent, basic expenses) for a few months while we look for jobs??

In Miami, we pay 1,357 Euros ($1,790 USD) per month on rent excluding utilities. It`s a 3 bed/2 bath apartment in a working class community.

What`s the average monthly rent of a 2 Bed/apartment in Italy? Is it hard for a couple to be able to pay this rent with 2 minimum wages (besides the everyday life expenses: food, transportation, clothing, etc) ???

I can`t believe that Italy`s cost of living can actually be higher than Miami ...that`s bad news...

Do you consider that the average Italian lives under stress or do you consider Italians to be in good mood most of the time???

In Miami, most of the people live under constant strees because the salaries are so low and the cost of living is so high. Miami is one of the least affordable cities (Cost of living compared to salaries)

Miami - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

" According to the U.S. Census Bureau, in 2004, Miami had the third highest incidence of family incomes below the federal poverty line in the United States, making it the third poorest city in the USA, behind only Detroit, Michigan (ranked #1) and El Paso, Texas(ranked #2.) Miami is also one of the very few cities where its local government went bankrupt, in 2001.
...As of 2007, however, the housing market has crashed and more than 23,000 condos are for sale and/or foreclosed.The Miami area ranks 8th in the nation in foreclosures.Miami is also one of the least affordable places to live, with the median percentage of housing costs as a percentage of income was 42.8%; the national average was 27%. Miami ranks twelfth among least affordable cities for home ownership."

Miami is pretty much a poor city where its residents usually work in 2/3 jobs to be able to cover their basic expenses.

In our case, we have been lucky and we both have good jobs.

She is a human resources analyst and I work as a mathematics middle school teacher. Our combined monthly income add up to 5,308 Euros ($7,000 USD).

Our reason to move to Italy is because we are tired of the quality of life in Miami. We have a decent income but there are factors such as (trafic, stress, high cost of living, crime, everybody has 2/3 jobs so friends are many times unavailable, family values, etc) that make us believe that there must be some place better to raise our family in the future... and as a teacher I have perceived how the culture in this country is destroying our children (MTV, rap, drugs, sex, sex, money, racism, war, etc etc).

I would not mind having a low paid job in Italy as long as we live in a peaceful environment where the citizens have good family values and our future children can grow.

When I see my students... I realize how USA`s culture has been destroyed by the media (MTV, tv shows, etc). Most of them want to be like Eminen, Snoop Dog, Paris Hilton, etc...

I`ve heard them talking about sex...and the majority of them (11 years/12 years old) are sexually active. Again, I believe that the media has brainwashed our children with SEX and DRUGS messages.

The news channels label everyone (specially Fox News)...instead of refering to specific person according to the person`s name...they label people as African American, Asian American, Arab American, Native American, soo and so American...etc. People don`t know anymore what an American is...maybe an extraterrestial..who knows..., everybody is segregated. On a daily basis, I see how my 12 year old/11 year old students dirscriminate other students because they learned to be this way thanks to the TV.

People in Miami don`t walk... the distances are hugemongous... everybody drives and that`s why people are just too fat. Mcdonalds/fast food is our daily menu... there is too many fat people... we are killing ourselves..

I have seen that Europeans walk more and the public transportation is excellent...

Europe seems to be different, at least when it comes to the culture and education. Italians are very family oriented... plus factors such as: museums, food, natural beauty, architecture, education, Universal healthcare system, etc make me think that Italy could be a good place to raise my family.

You wrote,

"There is no way that you will be granted citizenship after only six months. Most likely there will be a naturalization process, like everywhere else in the world, as a minimum I would venture to guess it would take at least three years."

I spoke to an Italian Immigration officer in the Italian embassy and he told me that I will be able to acquire it in 6 months if we move to Italy. Italian nationality law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Citizenship Through Marriage (http://www.expatsinitaly.com/citizenship/cit_marriage.html - broken link)

Wikipedia says from 6 months to 2 years ... you may be right about the length of the naturalization process...

Well,,,thanks for the info. I will study my options in those Italians cities that you recommended...

Many Thanks

Last edited by Eduardo983; 04-29-2009 at 05:31 AM..
 
Old 04-29-2009, 06:37 AM
 
Location: western East Roman Empire
3,827 posts, read 6,062,153 times
Reputation: 2480
I share your concerns about the stupidities and dangers of US popular culture, and one possible way out is home schooling. In any case, perhaps you and your wife should consider other areas of the US, as well as Italy.

The same stupidities and dangers regarding popular culture exist also in Europe and Italy, but, as you refer to, there is probably a wider and deeper range of ways out.

Stress depends more on individual psychology than on external circumstances, however, if I had to generalize, I would say that northern Italians are more stressed than southern Italians, and that the Milanese and Turinese in particular can be quite dour.

I don't know offhand going rental rates right now, but, as I mentioned, in cities like Milan and Rome the rates are world class; you need to go to the provincial towns to find a lower cost of living.

But that's the dilemma, usually anywhere: job opportunities but high cost of living and high stress in the big cities; moderate cost of living, good quality of life, but very few job opportunities in smaller towns.

In any case, in principle, you can certainly get by for two or three months, even in Milan or Rome, with €30,000, but I would not be optimistic about job opportunities at all, especially without Italian, and even if you found jobs, that they would allow you to live comfortably in a two-bedroom apartment: the average apartment in a big European city is about 65-85 square meters; 100 square meters is considered big. Do the math.

The economic structure of southern Italy is more similar to that of a second-rate Latin American country or region than it is to that of an advanced industrialized country or region (except for the subsidies that it receives from the rest of Italy and the European Union). In other words, most job opportunities come through closely-held small family businesses of varying degrees of technology. In your link for Cosimo, look at the part on the typical industries: agriculture (vegetables and wine), cabinet making, and marble working. Do you have skills in those areas, does your wife's relatives have businesses in these trades, and can they provide you with jobs?

If you insist, first you should both learn as much Italian as you can before you go. To minimize expense, you could study the grammar on your own, then, to learn the spoken language, perhaps watch Italian television programming available in the US (I'm not sure if RAI still broadcasts a daily show in the US through some local public television station, it used to at least in New York years ago), and/or hang out with the Italian community (Italian, not Italian-American) in Miami, about 40,000 strong, though I imagine that they are concentrated in Brickell/Coconut Grove/Coral Gables (visit the site of the US-Italy Chamber of Commerce in Miami), not in some working class neighborhood.
Next, you could try to find jobs in some big Italian city, or perhaps teaching language at a language school in some small town, though I really don't think you would earn enough to support yourselves adequately. You might be able to scrape by if you both work. But, who knows, from there you might find other and slightly better opportunities. It is difficult, but not impossible.

Finally, take with a grain of salt what someone from the consulate tells you, immigration rules change all the time, and usually a consulate is the last to know. Also, the Italian bureaucracy is not known for transparency and swiftness. Having said that, however, being the wife of a citizen, sooner or later, but probably sooner with money and persistence, you will overcome any legal immigration issues.

Again, the main problem will be jobs, income and the cost of living. If you work as a freelancer, self-employed or have your own business, then taxation will be a major, major problem as well. The Italian economy has stagnated since the early 1990s, and tax rates have only increased, not decreased.

Nevertheless, by all means, do explore this option - there is certainly more to life than worrying about money and taxes - but consider elsewhere in the US as well.

In bocca al lupo!
 
Old 04-29-2009, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Augusta, Ga
337 posts, read 499,839 times
Reputation: 156
Eduardo - Why the desire to flee the US? Getting out of Miami I can understand.

Have you looked at other areas in the US? As long as you stay out of the largest cities, cost of living would be much lower without taking much of a pay cut.

As for moving to Italy with neither of you speaking the language, that would be extremely difficult. You would be better off to take a month, rent somewhere in Italy and see how you like it. Study Italian, Learn to speak it fluently, then think about making the move. Find a job on one of your visits.

Going there with 30,000 euros? I think that you would be surprised how much would leave your hands very quickly. Plan to watch TV - Need to buy a TV. Eat - pots, pans, plates, glasses, microwave, coffee maker, cups. Sit down - furniture, beds, lamps, linens. Go on the internet - computer/printer. You get the idea...Everything electric will need to be 50 cycles/220v with a different plug.

You may want to make up a spread sheet listing all of the prices of things that you will need to buy (then increase by 25-50% for the things that you forgot). Then find the price of rentals, utilities. Money will go away quickly.

Good luck
 
Old 04-29-2009, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Milan - ITALY
2,994 posts, read 2,768,368 times
Reputation: 2828
I'm Italian and I would like to be American.
I recommend you to stay in USA. It's better. Now, there are a lot of people that want go out to Italy.
Here, the life isn't good.

USA is fantastic!
 
Old 04-29-2009, 04:40 PM
 
549 posts, read 1,123,055 times
Reputation: 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by minniemouse View Post
I'm Italian and I would like to be American.
I recommend you to stay in USA. It's better. Now, there are a lot of people that want go out to Italy.
Here, the life isn't good.

USA is fantastic!

Minniemouse you live in Milan ,

Why life isn`t good there??

Could you give me some info...
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