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Old 08-19-2011, 08:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MilkDrinker View Post
The problem with Czech Republic is that it's population is not very flexible like in other E. European countries (Poland or Romania). In Poland or Romania there were massive layoffs (and when I say massive I mean millions of people were fired when the communist factories and companies went broke). But those people didn't do like the Czechs... they went back to school, they changed their qualifications, their jobs, their field... they started new lives... few remained behind.

they are a lot of people who remained behind in both countries. Especially older people.
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Old 08-19-2011, 08:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Josef K. View Post
Interesting reaction. Personally, I see no problem with Russia setting its own immigration policy (that's what normal countries do, right?), and if they want to make linguistic and cultural compatibility a paramount value, that's their business. BTW, as someone noted above, the demographic stats have become healthier in the last few years.

As for the original question, I think Czech and Slovak Republics, plus Slovenia, will lead in terms of quality of life, while Poland will have the largest economy and exert the most geopolitical weight. In other words, I expect things to continue about as they are now.
I have no problem with countries making their own immigration policy. That's what can set them apart. But when there is a xenophobic undertone (thiat IS there), that's my gripe. As for their demographics stabilizing, that largely has to do with immigrants, migrants, western medicine, etc. Not the fact that ethnic Russians are having more children. Ironically. it is the non-Slavic points that are linked to healthy demographics result that recently came out. Ironic indeed...
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Old 08-20-2011, 04:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by takeo3 View Post
Estonia is doing fine. The other Baltic republics have a lot of problems.

I think Estonia and Slovenia have already Western european living standards (at least better than portugal which is part of Western europe). Also I think Czech republic has a higher living standard than portugal.

Poland is growing but there's still a very poor eastern part of the country, Russia and Ukraine there's too much corruption, the same goes for Bulgaria and Romania.

Actuallu what few people know is that living standards were higher during communist times in many eastern europen countries than today. It's the case in Hungary, Ukraine, Bulgaria that I know for sure, maybe more.

Hungary was the best performing economy in Eastern Europe during communist times, now it's only average.

Romania remains poor, in the centre of big cities you see a lot of change but living standards generally have not improved much.

Average salary in Romania is around 400$ and prices in supermarket are almost equal to Western Europe or the US. Can you imagine... Worse still in Ukraine, were average salary does not exceed 300$.
I don't know where you live or where you get your information from but almost nothing you say is true!
How do you define poverty? I don't believe that people having an apartment can be considered poor and 80% of Romanians have one... that's a huge saving in their cost of living because they don't have to pay a monthly mortgage or rent. The people in Eastern Europe always complain about their standard of living but after they immigrate to the West they realize that their life back home wasn't that bad at all.
Hungary was the WORST performing economy during communism. Actually they had BIG debt problems even then... yeah... maybe they lived a little bit better but was on borrowed money!
Saying that the living standards haven't improved much in Romania is ridiculous! I've been there between 1989 and 2010. How many people had a TV in 1990? Probably less than 5% of population. How many of them had a washing machine? Less than 5%. How many of them had a car? Less than 10%. Now all these things are considered commodities... everyone has them. Just yesterday I was in Brasov and if you look at the people on the street you'll see that the differences between them and the westerners are not the big anymore... actually you barely notice them. (the way they dress, their mood and so on)
Saying that the prices in Romania are as in the west is another false statement... only they believe it. In Romania I was spending about 150$ on food... in the US about 350$/month. My rent was 250$... in the US 1000$, the insurance (all of them) in Romania is dirt cheap compared even with E. Europe.
I believe Eastern Europeans will considered themselves poor even if they all had a Lexus and lived in a luxury villa. They have to change their mentality because it's certainly wrong.
I know a guy (Romanian) who went to work in Italy as a shepard for 700 euros... in Romania a shepard is payed with 500 euros (because fewer and fewer people want to do this job) but he's cost of living is probably 5 times smaller than in Italy... yet they still go there. The same thing in agriculture... the Romanians went in droves in Spain to pick strawberries for 500 euros but in Romania the potato picking is payed with the same money and no one goes to do it. It's the "greener grass syndrome"!
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Old 08-20-2011, 07:38 AM
 
503 posts, read 967,027 times
Reputation: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkDrinker View Post
I don't know where you live or where you get your information from but almost nothing you say is true!
How do you define poverty? I don't believe that people having an apartment can be considered poor and 80% of Romanians have one... that's a huge saving in their cost of living because they don't have to pay a monthly mortgage or rent. The people in Eastern Europe always complain about their standard of living but after they immigrate to the West they realize that their life back home wasn't that bad at all.
Hungary was the WORST performing economy during communism. Actually they had BIG debt problems even then... yeah... maybe they lived a little bit better but was on borrowed money!
Saying that the living standards haven't improved much in Romania is ridiculous! I've been there between 1989 and 2010. How many people had a TV in 1990? Probably less than 5% of population. How many of them had a washing machine? Less than 5%. How many of them had a car? Less than 10%. Now all these things are considered commodities... everyone has them. Just yesterday I was in Brasov and if you look at the people on the street you'll see that the differences between them and the westerners are not the big anymore... actually you barely notice them. (the way they dress, their mood and so on)
Saying that the prices in Romania are as in the west is another false statement... only they believe it. In Romania I was spending about 150$ on food... in the US about 350$/month. My rent was 250$... in the US 1000$, the insurance (all of them) in Romania is dirt cheap compared even with E. Europe.
I believe Eastern Europeans will considered themselves poor even if they all had a Lexus and lived in a luxury villa. They have to change their mentality because it's certainly wrong.
I know a guy (Romanian) who went to work in Italy as a shepard for 700 euros... in Romania a shepard is payed with 500 euros (because fewer and fewer people want to do this job) but he's cost of living is probably 5 times smaller than in Italy... yet they still go there. The same thing in agriculture... the Romanians went in droves in Spain to pick strawberries for 500 euros but in Romania the potato picking is payed with the same money and no one goes to do it. It's the "greener grass syndrome"!
In 1985 172 per 1000 inhabitants had a television in Romania, in Belgium at the same year it was 250.

susan griggs Agency LTD. london

I'm not Romanian, originally from Russia, but I visited the countries since the 90's.
Most Romanians and nearly all Hungarians say that living standards where higher in the 80's, who am I to doubt their words?

240 Romanians per 1000 have a car, this is still only half of most Western countries.
List of countries by vehicles per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it is more of course than in the 80's, but having a car isn't the only indicator of living standards, especially since public transport was cheap and plentyfull.

Eight four per cent of Romanians do not support the execution of communist leader Nicolae Ceausescu and forty-one per cent say they would vote for him as president if elections were held now.
Romanians would vote Ceausescu for president again - General News - Romanian Times Online News - English Newspaper



Romanians remain ambivalent about their recent past. A recent survey by the Romanian polling organisation CSOP shows that nearly half of the population believe their life was better during the Communist era, with a higher standard of living and job security being given as the main arguments.

Less than a quarter of Romanians believe their life has improved in the two decades since the overthrow of communist dictator Nicolae Ceausescu.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/romanians-ambivalent-over-film-about-ceausescu

wages are very low in romania. I don't believe a potato picker gets 500 euro in a month, as my friend, who's an ingeneer, get less than that money.

Also supermarket prices are almost the same as in Western Europe (for example Aldi in Belgium is cheaper than any supermarket in Romania).
Of course if you shop from farmer's markets it's going to be cheaper.
In communist times food was ridiculously cheap, but not always available.


The appartments most Romanians have are mostly from communist times.
Few new buildings have been constructed for average people.

There are of course a few things cheaper than in the West, such as taxis, restaurants, cost of electricity and water, etc.

But clothes are almost as expensive as in the West, electronic devises are generally more expensive.

Also I think you are aware that Romanians and Hungarians are not the best friends.

Last edited by takeo3; 08-20-2011 at 07:51 AM..
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Old 08-20-2011, 03:16 PM
 
634 posts, read 1,004,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takeo3 View Post
In 1985 172 per 1000 inhabitants had a television in Romania, in Belgium at the same year it was 250.

susan griggs Agency LTD. london

I'm not Romanian, originally from Russia, but I visited the countries since the 90's.
Most Romanians and nearly all Hungarians say that living standards where higher in the 80's, who am I to doubt their words?

240 Romanians per 1000 have a car, this is still only half of most Western countries.
List of countries by vehicles per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it is more of course than in the 80's, but having a car isn't the only indicator of living standards, especially since public transport was cheap and plentyfull.

Eight four per cent of Romanians do not support the execution of communist leader Nicolae Ceausescu and forty-one per cent say they would vote for him as president if elections were held now.
Romanians would vote Ceausescu for president again - General News - Romanian Times Online News - English Newspaper



Romanians remain ambivalent about their recent past. A recent survey by the Romanian polling organisation CSOP shows that nearly half of the population believe their life was better during the Communist era, with a higher standard of living and job security being given as the main arguments.

Less than a quarter of Romanians believe their life has improved in the two decades since the overthrow of communist dictator Nicolae Ceausescu.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/romanians-ambivalent-over-film-about-ceausescu

wages are very low in romania. I don't believe a potato picker gets 500 euro in a month, as my friend, who's an ingeneer, get less than that money.

Also supermarket prices are almost the same as in Western Europe (for example Aldi in Belgium is cheaper than any supermarket in Romania).
Of course if you shop from farmer's markets it's going to be cheaper.
In communist times food was ridiculously cheap, but not always available.


The appartments most Romanians have are mostly from communist times.
Few new buildings have been constructed for average people.

There are of course a few things cheaper than in the West, such as taxis, restaurants, cost of electricity and water, etc.

But clothes are almost as expensive as in the West, electronic devises are generally more expensive.

Also I think you are aware that Romanians and Hungarians are not the best friends.
CSOP is the agency of a former communist (Dan Voiculescu), all their studies are in favor of communism but their credibility is very low among Romanians. Also I won't believe those statistics from 1985 either... acording to the statistics made by the communists Romania had the highest productivity in the World :lol: and it produced as much wheat as the US :lol:
I don't care what the polls say... I'm Romanian and my parents lived in communism. My mother didn't had enough food when she was pregnant with me because the stores were completely empty(my father had to bribe a chef from a restaurant where only foreigners were allowed to give him 2 eggs because otherwise my mother would have lost me)! There was TV reception just 2 hours/day. (and then some propaganda). The heating was just for a few hours... people were living like in some caves. There were absolutely no western products or brands. You had the right to use your car during the weekend just once every 2 weeks. It was illegal to own a foreign currency. You could not leave the country (you got shot if you tried to... and I know many people who were killed at the border). My grandfather was jailed because he was a Christian and didn't agree with the communist beliefs. Despite the fact that my father had some of the best grades in the university and was one of the best students in the country they didn't promoted him until the fall of communism because his father "was a enemy of the communism".
Of course people don't agree with the execution of Ceausescu... he was shot like a dog on Christmas day... some Romanians believe that we are cursed because of it. Also he wasn't judged before his shooting... it was just a show organized by the neo-communists that took over. That's why there were protests in Romania after the so called fall of communism and the neo-communists brought the miners to kill the intellectuals. (in 1991)
13 iunie 1990 MIX - partea 2 (strainatate) - YouTube You're telling me that people want to go back to this stuff? Of course there are some who miss communism because everyone had a job... but there was nothing to do with the money... but the scum doesn't care that they are poor... they want everyone else to be poor! Before the communism Romania had better GDP/capita than Portugal, Greece, Spain or Ireland... there were thousands of Italians that came in Romania to work... after 50 years of communism the country was broke.


VALI STERIAN - Doamne, vino Doamne - YouTube here's a video with photos from the revolution. that's how much people loved communism... so much that thousands chose to die for freedom in the bloodiest revolution that took place in Europe in the last century.
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Old 08-20-2011, 03:46 PM
 
634 posts, read 1,004,537 times
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Now that I show you some footage from '89 and '91 here's some videos of present Romania:


And here's a nicely made video of the city where I lived... the differences are huge! And the things change very fast... I remember being gone for the summer in 2007 and when I come back some parts of the city were completely changed!
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:24 AM
 
503 posts, read 967,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkDrinker View Post
CSOP is the agency of a former communist (Dan Voiculescu), all their studies are in favor of communism but their credibility is very low among Romanians. Also I won't believe those statistics from 1985 either... acording to the statistics made by the communists Romania had the highest productivity in the World :lol: and it produced as much wheat as the US :lol:
I don't care what the polls say... I'm Romanian and my parents lived in communism. My mother didn't had enough food when she was pregnant with me because the stores were completely empty(my father had to bribe a chef from a restaurant where only foreigners were allowed to give him 2 eggs because otherwise my mother would have lost me)! There was TV reception just 2 hours/day. (and then some propaganda). The heating was just for a few hours... people were living like in some caves. There were absolutely no western products or brands. You had the right to use your car during the weekend just once every 2 weeks. It was illegal to own a foreign currency. You could not leave the country (you got shot if you tried to... and I know many people who were killed at the border). My grandfather was jailed because he was a Christian and didn't agree with the communist beliefs. Despite the fact that my father had some of the best grades in the university and was one of the best students in the country they didn't promoted him until the fall of communism because his father "was a enemy of the communism".
Of course people don't agree with the execution of Ceausescu... he was shot like a dog on Christmas day... some Romanians believe that we are cursed because of it. Also he wasn't judged before his shooting... it was just a show organized by the neo-communists that took over. That's why there were protests in Romania after the so called fall of communism and the neo-communists brought the miners to kill the intellectuals. (in 1991)
13 iunie 1990 MIX - partea 2 (strainatate) - YouTube You're telling me that people want to go back to this stuff? Of course there are some who miss communism because everyone had a job... but there was nothing to do with the money... but the scum doesn't care that they are poor... they want everyone else to be poor! Before the communism Romania had better GDP/capita than Portugal, Greece, Spain or Ireland... there were thousands of Italians that came in Romania to work... after 50 years of communism the country was broke.


VALI STERIAN - Doamne, vino Doamne - YouTube here's a video with photos from the revolution. that's how much people loved communism... so much that thousands chose to die for freedom in the bloodiest revolution that took place in Europe in the last century.
Well I went to Romania a year ago and most people I talked to told me life was better under Ceaucescu. That's also the opinion of my friend Laurentiu. That's all I can say. Of course if you're from a family of anti-communists who suffered repression you're not going to love Ceaucescu, I respect that. But apparently not all Romanians share your opinion.

Also, I have statistics of GNP per capita during history, and Romania was never ahead of Italy, it had about 1/3 of most Western European countries in the 30's according to the statistics of professor Maddison (who was, he died last year, by the way not a communist but a conservative historian)
Home Maddison
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:28 AM
 
503 posts, read 967,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkDrinker View Post
Now that I show you some footage from '89 and '91 here's some videos of present Romania:


And here's a nicely made video of the city where I lived... the differences are huge! And the things change very fast... I remember being gone for the summer in 2007 and when I come back some parts of the city were completely changed!
listen I travelled all over the world and one thing I can tell you: expensive cars indicate that there are some people with a lot of money, it doesn't mean that overall it's a rich country.

In my home country Russia you see more expensive cars than even in the West, yet many people barely survive and some are hungry.
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Old 08-21-2011, 08:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by takeo3 View Post
listen I travelled all over the world and one thing I can tell you: expensive cars indicate that there are some people with a lot of money, it doesn't mean that overall it's a rich country.

In my home country Russia you see more expensive cars than even in the West, yet many people barely survive and some are hungry.
The differences between poor and rich are smaller in eastern Europe than in western Europe. Way much smaller. And the GINI index shows that! And it really doesn't matter how rich are the rich and how big are the differences as long as the poor have a roof over their head everyone's fine!
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Old 08-21-2011, 08:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by takeo3 View Post
Also, I have statistics of GNP per capita during history, and Romania was never ahead of Italy, it had about 1/3 of most Western European countries in the 30's according to the statistics of professor Maddison (who was, he died last year, by the way not a communist but a conservative historian)
Home Maddison
According to wikipedia:

Quote:
After World War I, the application of radical agricultural reforms and the passing of a new constitution created a democratic framework and allowed for quick economic growth (industrial production doubled between 1923–1938, despite the effects of the Great Depression). With oil production of 7.2 million tons in 1937, Romania ranked second in Europe and seventh in the world.[24] The oil extracted from Romania was essential for the German war campaigns.[25] Before World War II, it was Europe's second-largest food producer.[26] In 1938, per-capita national income reached $94, surpassing other present-day developed European countries such as Greece ($76) or Portugal ($81). [27]
I didn't say that the GDP/capita was bigger than in Italy but definitely bigger than in Southern Italy and Sicily. The income in the region of Italy are quite small even today after billions and billions of euros more pumped into the area. The Italians from Southern Italy immigrated all over the World and Romania was one of their destinations too... that means the life wasn't bad there. The jewish songs from that period certify that too...

Of course the jews liked the area for the same reason the gypsy like it too (unlike in the west, in Romania they were tolerated and almost had full rights)

Here's a footage of Bucharest before communism. It was definitely more developed and more beautiful than the cow towns Scandinavia had back then! And the same thing happened with Warsaw but not on the same scale... they didn't had a mad dictator like Ceausescu.


And if you visited the country you know how ****ty the city looks after everything was demolished and replaced with grey concrete ugly buildings.

Last edited by MilkDrinker; 08-21-2011 at 08:49 AM..
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