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Old 08-21-2011, 12:00 PM
 
503 posts, read 967,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkDrinker View Post
The differences between poor and rich are smaller in eastern Europe than in western Europe. Way much smaller. And the GINI index shows that! And it really doesn't matter how rich are the rich and how big are the differences as long as the poor have a roof over their head everyone's fine!
what matters most is how the majority lives. There will always be poor gypsies. Living standards in Romania are way below Western Europe according to UNDP. International Human Development Indicators - UNDP

living standard in Romania is comparable to Latvia, Argentina, Croatia or Cuba according to UNDP statistics.
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Old 08-21-2011, 12:15 PM
 
503 posts, read 967,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkDrinker View Post
According to wikipedia:



I didn't say that the GDP/capita was bigger than in Italy but definitely bigger than in Southern Italy and Sicily. The income in the region of Italy are quite small even today after billions and billions of euros more pumped into the area. The Italians from Southern Italy immigrated all over the World and Romania was one of their destinations too... that means the life wasn't bad there. The jewish songs from that period certify that too...

Of course the jews liked the area for the same reason the gypsy like it too (unlike in the west, in Romania they were tolerated and almost had full rights)

Here's a footage of Bucharest before communism. It was definitely more developed and more beautiful than the cow towns Scandinavia had back then! And the same thing happened with Warsaw but not on the same scale... they didn't had a mad dictator like Ceausescu.


And if you visited the country you know how ****ty the city looks after everything was demolished and replaced with grey concrete ugly buildings.
City centers are never typical for a country, I can show you images of istanbul in the 30's and it just looks like Paris, but Turkey was a very poor country.

About the current looks of Bucharest, not that bad really I even like the "palace of the people". There are still enough old buildings and the ones build during communist times are not worse than what you can find in Belgium for example.

Your figures contradict the ones of Maddison a bit, but still Greece and Portugal aren't typical Western European countries. Even after receiving billions of EU aid since the 80's they are still quite poor. For example average salary in Portugal is 600 euro.

Romania, even in the highdays of oil production, was still considerably poorer than Italy, let alone Germany, France or GB. And it still is.

Industrialisation began in earnest in the 50's.

Gypsies and Jews moved to Romania in the middle ages since back than it was more tolerant.

But since the 19th century there was a lot of antisemitism, the regime of Antonescu murdered many Jews. Almost all Jews moved to Israel or the West, even before he communists came to power.

Most Romanians including my friend still hate gypsies, I understand why...


I think in romania there's a huge difference between the regions, in Brasov you feel in Austria, in slobozia you feel in the thirth world, in Maramures you feel in ancient times, Moldavia looks like Ukraine.



anyway, I like Romania, it's a unique culture, people are friendly and relaxed, a beautiful nature (where in Europe for exmple can you find so many bears?).

But the economy is not one of its strong points.
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Old 08-21-2011, 04:38 PM
 
15,818 posts, read 14,241,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DginnDoctor View Post
I have no problem with countries making their own immigration policy. That's what can set them apart. But when there is a xenophobic undertone (thiat IS there), that's my gripe. As for their demographics stabilizing, that largely has to do with immigrants, migrants, western medicine, etc. Not the fact that ethnic Russians are having more children. Ironically. it is the non-Slavic points that are linked to healthy demographics result that recently came out. Ironic indeed...
The "xenophobic" undertone has always been there, as it has been anywhere else. ( Where it hasn't been "there"? In USA? Germany? England?)
It's always there, the only question is to what degree and at what historical point in time.
However in spite of the "xenophobic undertone" how did Russia manage to have the biggest number of immigrants - the second country I suppose only after the US? The current estimate of them is 7 to 12 million, many of them are undocumented people from Central Asia and Caucasus.
So you might be contradicting yourself here; you can clearly see that ethnic Russians are rapidly dying out ( as the stage for this scenario has been cleverly set back in the 90ies) and while they are dying out, they are replaced more and more with ethnic people, mostly of muslim background who are willing to serve the ruling class for a much smaller payment. Of course the more reasonable part of Russians who are tolerant people and who (very reasonably too) believe that the strength of Russian empire was historically in unity of different nationalities, are losing their argument, seeing what's going on.
So yes, in many ways you can think of today's Russia as about the pre-war Germany.
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Old 08-24-2011, 03:19 AM
 
Location: France
156 posts, read 335,423 times
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There are many many nostalgics of the Ceausescu era in Romania. But they are mostly older people (over 40), and if you check their backround you find out that one of their parents probably had a big job with the state.

Not only the repressed talk like that about the communism. My family never had any problems with the law, but my father still couldn't find the milk I needed when I was a baby, he had to bribe some guy for it. Luckily for us, he worked at a restaurant and he had more acces to food...

You really can't imagine how it is to have money and nothing to use it for. The last years of communism were just like this. The supermarkets were empty (yes, empty), there was no heat in the winter (and I lived in Bucharest, not some distant village), everyone lived in terror.

I don't get how some say things were better back then! Romania is no Heaven, that is true, but now, if you don't like something, you can just pack your bags and go. Then, you were shot and put in prison for the rest of your life. yes, everybody got a place to live, but those were tiny apartments and they came with a tone of obligations.

No freedom of speech,no liberty, no free will! Whoever says those were better times maybe they should go live in North Korea, I hear it is lovely there.
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Old 09-04-2011, 07:50 PM
 
503 posts, read 967,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkk2chane View Post
There are many many nostalgics of the Ceausescu era in Romania. But they are mostly older people (over 40), and if you check their backround you find out that one of their parents probably had a big job with the state.

Not only the repressed talk like that about the communism. My family never had any problems with the law, but my father still couldn't find the milk I needed when I was a baby, he had to bribe some guy for it. Luckily for us, he worked at a restaurant and he had more acces to food...

You really can't imagine how it is to have money and nothing to use it for. The last years of communism were just like this. The supermarkets were empty (yes, empty), there was no heat in the winter (and I lived in Bucharest, not some distant village), everyone lived in terror.

I don't get how some say things were better back then! Romania is no Heaven, that is true, but now, if you don't like something, you can just pack your bags and go. Then, you were shot and put in prison for the rest of your life. yes, everybody got a place to live, but those were tiny apartments and they came with a tone of obligations.

No freedom of speech,no liberty, no free will! Whoever says those were better times maybe they should go live in North Korea, I hear it is lovely there.

More than half of the Romanian population had parents with a big job with the state?

What my friends tell me is that they had money and everything was dirt cheap. They didn't know how to spend their money. Noone had to pay rent, or pay for education or healthcare.

They also told me, as you did, that there were many shortages since the late 80's, however if there wasn't milk for example you always could get milk powder or get it in a different way etc. Of course it was a big flow in the system. Somehow these kind of shortages never happened in Hungary. I remember as a child they even had kiwi limonade which wasn't available in the West. In the soviet-Union there were also shortages, but you could always buy anything at the markets, altough at a much higher price.
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Old 09-05-2011, 11:23 AM
 
634 posts, read 1,004,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takeo3 View Post
More than half of the Romanian population had parents with a big job with the state?

What my friends tell me is that they had money and everything was dirt cheap. They didn't know how to spend their money. Noone had to pay rent, or pay for education or healthcare.

They also told me, as you did, that there were many shortages since the late 80's, however if there wasn't milk for example you always could get milk powder or get it in a different way etc. Of course it was a big flow in the system. Somehow these kind of shortages never happened in Hungary. I remember as a child they even had kiwi limonade which wasn't available in the West. In the soviet-Union there were also shortages, but you could always buy anything at the markets, altough at a much higher price.
kiwi lemonade? in communist Romania ??? =)) 95% of Romanians never seen a banana before the fall of communism and 30% ate only 1 orange/family (the rest didn't know how a orange looked like).
you had to pay your mortgage... yes the apartments were cheap but not free!
the education as the healthcare are deducted from your salary (it's the same today)... (healthcare tax and so on).
I guess you don't understand what shortage in communism Romania meant )... it meant there was absolutely nothing in any store in the city ...NOTHING...
Hungary had shortages too... but you have to understand that they had huge deficits.
One bad thing about communism in Romania was that Ceausescu payed all the debt before his death... (with the price of keeping the people in poverty and hunger) while Poland or Hungary had their huge debts erased at the fall of communism.
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Old 09-05-2011, 06:09 PM
 
503 posts, read 967,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkDrinker View Post
kiwi lemonade? in communist Romania ??? =)) 95% of Romanians never seen a banana before the fall of communism and 30% ate only 1 orange/family (the rest didn't know how a orange looked like).
you had to pay your mortgage... yes the apartments were cheap but not free!
the education as the healthcare are deducted from your salary (it's the same today)... (healthcare tax and so on).
I guess you don't understand what shortage in communism Romania meant )... it meant there was absolutely nothing in any store in the city ...NOTHING...
Hungary had shortages too... but you have to understand that they had huge deficits.
One bad thing about communism in Romania was that Ceausescu payed all the debt before his death... (with the price of keeping the people in poverty and hunger) while Poland or Hungary had their huge debts erased at the fall of communism.
In communist Hungary they had kiwi limonade, no lines and big choice.

Stores were not empty in communst Romania. Choice was limited and there were lines.
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Old 05-13-2012, 07:59 PM
 
39 posts, read 130,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkDrinker View Post
I don't believe in Czech Republic. I think Czech Republic won't grow much more.
If you want to consider just the Central and Eastern EU my bets will be on:
1. Poland
2. Slovakia
3. Romania
The neighbors of one country are not that important in Europe. For example a lot of German companies have their operations in Romania instead of Poland (mine included). I chose the country as my 3rd option because I've been there for 6 months and I absolutely loved it and also because Romania has the chance to become a hub between Turkey, Russia and the EU (just like Austria is the hub between East and West) (it was like that before the 2nd world war and the communism).
Also Bulgaria can do well and they already have some smart policies to be competitive in that region where Romania was the star before the recession.
Countries that won't do very well in the near future:
1. Hungary (Hungary had problems even when it was part of the Eastern Block because of it's dumb economic policies)
2,3,4. The Baltic countries.
Here and here are some photos of the Romanian city I lived in this summer.
I would say the brightest future is in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, because they are no longer Eastern Europe, but are considered Northern Europe, have advanced economies and pretty high GDP numbers, Lithuania around $19,000 and Estonia around $20,000 GDP per capita and have high growth numbers, are situated between resource rich Russia, rich Scandinavia and the rest of Europe.

The only problem could be their sheer size, which is quite small (population of around 7 million total for all 3 countries) and there are no majour expressways connecting Poland with Lithuania, but inside of Lithuania there are several 4 lane inter-city expressways.

Hungary is already a quite advanced economy and has always been, much richer than Romania and than Poland. I don;t think there will be any problem economies among CEEC unless for now Albania and Moldova and some ex-Yu countries.
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Another World Traveler
98 posts, read 238,076 times
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Poland and Russia. Been to both and my line of work identifies both countries with a bright future.
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Old 05-14-2012, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, Canada
3,717 posts, read 4,482,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateUnitT6 View Post
I would say the brightest future is in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, because they are no longer Eastern Europe, but are considered Northern Europe, have advanced economies and pretty high GDP numbers, Lithuania around $19,000 and Estonia around $20,000 GDP per capita and have high growth numbers, are situated between resource rich Russia, rich Scandinavia and the rest of Europe.

The only problem could be their sheer size, which is quite small (population of around 7 million total for all 3 countries) and there are no majour expressways connecting Poland with Lithuania, but inside of Lithuania there are several 4 lane inter-city expressways.

Hungary is already a quite advanced economy and has always been, much richer than Romania and than Poland. I don;t think there will be any problem economies among CEEC unless for now Albania and Moldova and some ex-Yu countries.
since when latvia and lithuania are considerend norhtern european/ scandinavian lol?
thye are easter european and they are doing far worse than Poland or Czech republic so i dont think their future looks bright. Estonia is in a bit better situation tho
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