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Unread 05-06-2010, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Irvine, CA / Golden, CO
59 posts, read 111,925 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2360039 View Post
I prefer effective rehabilitation. Better a murderer 5 years in jail with rehabilitation and not 40 years behind bars.
There is no rehabilitation or atonement for murder (or many other crimes).

The US is too lenient. Criminal’s “rights” take precedence over their victim’s (lost) rights, the criminals know this and count on this and play the system to their advantage. No justice served, but the criminal’s rights were preserved. The victims are still dead, families ruined forever, grievous injuries endured for a lifetime, but that’s acceptable as long as the criminal gets his/her civil rights.

 
Unread 05-06-2010, 12:59 PM
 
Location: NC
10,009 posts, read 4,105,793 times
Reputation: 2956
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelaldo View Post
You're definitely right. Stats are totally wrong. HDI is bunk. Standard of living indices are highly biased. GINI coefficients are misguided and GDP PPP per capita is worthless. ::

I can say that people in South Africa live better than in the U.S. You throw all the stats at me that would prove otherwise, but i'll say, "all those stats are purely subjective and surely differ from person to person. I, for one, love living in South Africa." while ignoring the rest of the population that is hanging on to life by a thread.
I guess what I am trying to say is there is no sure metric that all everyone should aspire to. HDI and GINI are one way of measuring, but at the same time you have other metrics such as the HPI which measures quality of life balanced against environmental sustainability. In that metric Costa Rica is top while Norway is in the bottom half and that is just one measurement. Other metrics place Hong Kong, Singapore and the US well above Norway in quality of life through economic freedom/freedom from corruption and yet other metrics come up with other top countries. All of it depends on what you place value on.

Which ever metric you choose is a matter of personal preference and thus why it is an opinion. In your opinion you are equating income distribution/standard of living models with quality of life which is highly debatable.

Last edited by Randomstudent; 05-06-2010 at 01:11 PM..
 
Unread 05-07-2010, 12:06 AM
 
2,134 posts, read 1,483,963 times
Reputation: 1352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
Other metrics place Hong Kong, Singapore and the US well above Norway in quality of life through economic freedom/freedom from corruption and yet other metrics come up with other top countries.
More corruption in Norway compared to the U.S.? Norway ranks 11 on this chart, the U.S. is number 19. In terms of economic freedom, countries like the U.S. is well above Norway.
 
Unread 05-07-2010, 07:49 AM
 
Location: DF
757 posts, read 933,280 times
Reputation: 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
I guess what I am trying to say is there is no sure metric that all everyone should aspire to. HDI and GINI are one way of measuring, but at the same time you have other metrics such as the HPI which measures quality of life balanced against environmental sustainability. In that metric Costa Rica is top while Norway is in the bottom half and that is just one measurement. Other metrics place Hong Kong, Singapore and the US well above Norway in quality of life through economic freedom/freedom from corruption and yet other metrics come up with other top countries. All of it depends on what you place value on.

Which ever metric you choose is a matter of personal preference and thus why it is an opinion. In your opinion you are equating income distribution/standard of living models with quality of life which is highly debatable.
What good is economic freedom if you can't afford to live? You're right... I guess I can use the Happy Planet Index and I could say most Latin American countries are better places to live than the U.S. Standard of life must be better there since people are happier there.

Happy Planet Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Norway everyone has access to top notch healthcare regardless of employment in Norway. Norwegians don't have to take out 2nd mortgages on their homes to go to college. Norwegians don't have to be absolutely terrified of loosing their job. Their prison system isn't bursting at the seams, you can walk alone at night in their cities and when you send your kids to school you don't have to worry that they'll join a gang or be beat up. But at least we have low taxes and the ability to start a business . You're right, it's my opinion that all these factors make for a better life for the average citizen. Sorry, but the low taxes argument doesn't win me over when there are no tangible benefits to the general public from that.

Send me a link stating that Norway is on the bottom of the list of environmental procurement. It might be true since they are big oil drillers, and supporters of stuff like baby seal clubbing, but I'm interested in seeing it.
 
Unread 05-07-2010, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Bergen, Norway
221 posts, read 157,680 times
Reputation: 140
norway is definitely not a homogenous country.. 10,6% of its inhabbitants are foreigners and in Oslo the number is 27% (to be 40% by year 2030). Oslo of 1,4 million has a higher number of foreigners than Shanghai of 20 millions and on par with other european cities such as London, Paris, Amsterdam etc.. Calling it homogenous does not make any sense at all.

In my city the number is the same as the national average, and its not even in the top 10 list of the most multicultural cities in the country.

also, the number of immigrants is increasing rapidly and it is not a lie that in the not so distant future ethnic norwegians in norway will be hard to come across.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelaldo View Post
I agree 100%! I think people in those countries from time to tmie do have those conversations. The whole purpouse of human existence is to try to be better. Zimbabwe should aspire to be just as good as Scandinavian countries just as much as the U.S. should ... even if countries like the U.S. are probably closer to that.

I know Scandinavia isn't perfect, but i truly believe those societies are human evolution at it's best.

The reason the U.S. is often compared to Scandinavia and all of Europe is because, unbelievably so, the standard of living for the average person in Europe is better. It's hard for the world to wrap it's mind around the fact that, while we are a 'wealthy' nation, so many of our people live in poverty and die of very treatable diseases. For being the wealthy, developed, superpower that America is, the average citizen in America could only dream of living a European lifestyle. Americans counter with, "unemployment in Europe is higher"... but don't realize how comprehensive unemployment compensation is in Europe. An unemployed person in Europe is ten times better off than an unemployed person in America. No one goes broke when they come down with an uncurable illness in Europe,... but in America it's one of the main sources of bankrupcy. Are there virtues to the American economy,... the American way of doing business. Are there virtues in our healthcare system? In our prison systems? Absolutely... but it does come at the cost of a diminshed standard of living for the average citizen.
what are you talking about?? usa is the best country in the world!!

but yeah, seriously, how is it so that a comm.. i mean, socialistic country can be far better off than one that is capitalistic?! i mean, isnt socialism a huge, bad monster that needs to be killed in the most brutal way possible?

i believe that the US does soo many things wrong as a society.. and the fact that the majority of the american people fail to realize this is considered very shocking by europeans. ive visited the US three times (3 different states) and been pretty much all over western europe and there is no doubt that there is a better life over here. europeans always discuss how much harder life is in the US and what it must be like to live there.

i guess ill just sit here and wait for americans to change their mentality so that one day they can maybe be on par with western europe when it comes to quality of life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
I freely acknowledge that I suspect it. No, I did not crunch the numbers but I will go out on a limb and demonstrate the logic I used to come to my very dubious (to you) conclusion.

Oslo: metro population - 876,391

Bergen: metro population - 227,752

Stavanger: metro population - 189,828

Trondheim: metro population - 160,072

Assuming a fairly constant per capita crime rate, I would bet Oslo produces the most criminals. Unless you think that Bergen for some reason is a hotbed of crime with four times the rate of crime of Oslo.

And no, I'm not blaming all the crime on transplants nor most of the crime nor even some of the crime.
those are NOT metro populations. they are urban populations and i think theyre irrelevant and misleading.

here are the correct metro populations:

Oslo - 1,403,268 (and growing with 2% every year it is the fastest growing scandinavian capital and one of the fastest growing cities in europe)

Bergen - 377,116

Stavanger - 297,569

Trondheim - 260,364

as for Oslo being the crime-capital of Norway, this is definitely true and the high number of immigrant surely is a big part of this problem.

Last edited by City of Rain; 05-07-2010 at 09:14 AM..
 
Unread 05-07-2010, 10:45 AM
 
Location: NC
10,009 posts, read 4,105,793 times
Reputation: 2956
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmptrwlt View Post
More corruption in Norway compared to the U.S.? Norway ranks 11 on this chart, the U.S. is number 19. In terms of economic freedom, countries like the U.S. is well above Norway.
The US has slightly higher corruption then Norway but is higher ranked in other areas in this metric thus why it has a higher ranking of Economic Freedom/Freedom From corruption.

Country rankings for trade, business, fiscal, monetary, financial, labor and investment freedoms
 
Unread 05-07-2010, 10:58 AM
 
Location: NC
10,009 posts, read 4,105,793 times
Reputation: 2956
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelaldo View Post
What good is economic freedom if you can't afford to live? You're right... I guess I can use the Happy Planet Index and I could say most Latin American countries are better places to live than the U.S. Standard of life must be better there since people are happier there.

Happy Planet Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Norway everyone has access to top notch healthcare regardless of employment in Norway. Norwegians don't have to take out 2nd mortgages on their homes to go to college. Norwegians don't have to be absolutely terrified of loosing their job. Their prison system isn't bursting at the seams, you can walk alone at night in their cities and when you send your kids to school you don't have to worry that they'll join a gang or be beat up. But at least we have low taxes and the ability to start a business . You're right, it's my opinion that all these factors make for a better life for the average citizen. Sorry, but the low taxes argument doesn't win me over when there are no tangible benefits to the general public from that.

Send me a link stating that Norway is on the bottom of the list of environmental procurement. It might be true since they are big oil drillers, and supporters of stuff like baby seal clubbing, but I'm interested in seeing it.
Ok here is the link showing Norway's ecological footprint (Norway;s footprint is pointed out in the graph.)

Ecological footprint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you can see it is well above not only the world, but also much of the EU.

I have said more then once you make good points and you have a valid opinion on quality of life, I just disagree that it is the only valid opinion and that every one should seek to emulate it. As to the Happy planet index it is not simply measure of happiness, but a measure of quality of live versus sustainability and in my opinion very valid. All along I have said quality of life is a matter of personal preference and that each country should try to find what works for it rather then trying to emulate another, different country.

The reason for this is lets take your point of view that "all countries should aspire to be like Norway." Lets say further assume everyone works toward this goal and eventually achieves it. That would be the best outcome in your opinion, everywhere achieving the exact same quality of life as in Norway correct? What then happens to the environment? The fact of the matter is according to the happy planet index Norway is ranked 88 due to its massive ecological footprint. If the rest of the world emulated that it would be a global environmental disaster.

Last edited by Randomstudent; 05-07-2010 at 11:18 AM..
 
Unread 05-07-2010, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Bergen, Norway
221 posts, read 157,680 times
Reputation: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
Ok here is the link showing Norway's ecological footprint (Norway;s footprint is pointed out in the graph.)

Ecological footprint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you can see it is well above not only the world, but also much of the EU.

I have said more then once you make good points and you have a valid opinion on quality of life, I just disagree that it is the only valid opinion and that every one should seek to emulate it. As to the Happy planet index it is not simply measure of happiness, but a measure of quality of live versus sustainability and in my opinion very valid. All along I have said quality of life is a matter of personal preference and that each country should try to find what works for it rather then trying to emulate another, different country.

The reason for this is lets take your point of view that "all countries should aspire to be like Norway." Lets say further assume everyone works toward this goal and eventually achieves it. That would be the best outcome in your opinion, everywhere achieving the exact same quality of life as in Norway correct? What then happens to the environment? The fact of the matter is according to the happy planet index Norway is ranked 88 due to its massive ecological footprint. If the rest of the world emulated that it would be a global environmental disaster.
USA is clearly a much bigger sinner when it comes to ruining the environment than norway.. and in many parts of the usa you dont even have to use as much electricity because its not cold like in norway!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._footprint.svg

USA and China are the two nations in the world who seem to really love giving the middle finger to the environment. i know norwegians are not saints, but at least i am one of those norwegians who want us to join the EU.. which is the only superpower that actually seem to care about our earth.
 
Unread 05-07-2010, 03:46 PM
 
Location: NC
10,009 posts, read 4,105,793 times
Reputation: 2956
Quote:
Originally Posted by City of Rain View Post
USA is clearly a much bigger sinner when it comes to ruining the environment than norway.. and in many parts of the usa you dont even have to use as much electricity because its not cold like in norway!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._footprint.svg

USA and China are the two nations in the world who seem to really love giving the middle finger to the environment. i know norwegians are not saints, but at least i am one of those norwegians who want us to join the EU.. which is the only superpower that actually seem to care about our earth.
That is true, but that misses the point of what I am saying. The suggestion was made that all countries should aspire to be like Nordic countries, in terms of "quality of life" because in several metrics the are they most highly rated countries. What I am saying is that is not necessarily true because a term like "quality of life" is very much in the eye of the beholder.

For example, your correct that Norway blows the US out of the water with its ecological footprint. On the other hand Costa Rica beats both the US and Norway in terms of ecology foot print, but in other metrics is substantially behind the US and Norway.

My central point is that it while it is a valid opinion that Norway has the highest quality of life based on HDI standard of living models. It is an similarly valid opinion to argue that other countries, where the standard of living might be lower, have a higher quality of life because because either people rate themselves as happier, are shown to lead more environmentally sustainable lifestyles, or have a higher degree of economic freedom.

My point this entire time has been that there is no reason that all countries should aspire to one particular socio-economic model and that different people have different opinions about which model offers the highest quality of life for a given country.
 
Unread 05-07-2010, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Bergen, Norway
221 posts, read 157,680 times
Reputation: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
That is true, but that misses the point of what I am saying. The suggestion was made that all countries should aspire to be like Nordic countries, in terms of "quality of life" because in several metrics the are they most highly rated countries. What I am saying is that is not necessarily true because a term like "quality of life" is very much in the eye of the beholder.

For example, your correct that Norway blows the US out of the water with its ecological footprint. On the other hand Costa Rica beats both the US and Norway in terms of ecology foot print, but in other metrics is substantially behind the US and Norway.

My central point is that it while it is a valid opinion that Norway has the highest quality of life based on HDI standard of living models. It is an similarly valid opinion to argue that other countries, where the standard of living might be lower, have a higher quality of life because because either people rate themselves as happier, are shown to lead more environmentally sustainable lifestyles, or have a higher degree of economic freedom.

My point this entire time has been that there is no reason that all countries should aspire to one particular socio-economic model and that different people have different opinions about which model offers the highest quality of life for a given country.
youre saying that everyone should be poor because then we'd be happier..

or are you saying that those countries at the top of the list dont need to change, cause apparently theyre already perfect as they are?

the reason why we're not happy is because we're rich and want more. this is really immoral and greed is the only reason why we're less happy than them. in reality, we're far better off than them and this is all pretty illogical.
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