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cardio is awesome for weight loss, in many different forms.
Sorry, but that's not correct. Cardio is far inferior to properly setup resistance training, even for weight loss. Resistance training results in increased metabolism for several hours after a workout and builds muscle which in itself increases metabolism. Cardio does not neither.
Quote:
But let's nail this down.....it's hard to lose weight doing anything if you dont eat right.
It's actually as simple as calories in v. calories out. Create a deficit and you will lose weight.
I can guarantee that I will keep a completely neutral lower spine during all 100 reps. I can probably even get a video for you, if you'd like.
The problem is that crossfit takes exercises like clean and jerks and dead lifts, that are meant to be performed once with significant rest between sets, and starts doing multiple reps. That alone is bad enough, but when you start timing them, form naturally tends to fall apart. It completely defies all logic.
Quote:
This whole "I've seen people doing CrossFit with horrible form" argument really makes no sense to me. Are you telling me that you've never seen some dude in the gym with horrible bench/squat/deadlift form? Does that mean that powerlifting is to blame? No, obviously not. So why do you hold CrossFit to a higher standard? Because the classes are coached/supervised?
There is a substantial difference between some bozo using ****ty form in the gym and an entire workout philosophy that promotes poor form by design.
Quote:
Also, please explain the "no rhyme or reason" bit? Surely you're not suggesting that having dedicated days for a specific movement or muscle group is the only effective way to work out?
I think we've pretty well covered why crossfit's randomized training style sucks, haven't we?
I have a feeling I'm wasting my time here...but a couple things don't add up. You say you've been doing this for 10 years and obtained some pretty impressive numbers and run a marathon, but in the same time you didn't obtain the absolute basic knowledge that cardio sucks for weight loss? I'm having a tough time seeing how you could do what you claimed to have done and yet not know something so basic. I also find it a little strange that after 10 years you were still trying to figure out how to retain muscle and lose fat. That **** is Fitness 101.
As for things not adding up.....I have a power lifter build (big chest, big shoulders, big back, big belly), and I guess I'm lazy, lifting heavy and eating whatever has always been easier than pure bodybuilding. I have always lifted heavy. Yes i ran the marathons during phases where I ran a ton ( was not fast, I finished in just over 5 hours). I lost about 25 lbs during my training. I don't like to starve myself, it's about quality of life for me. Cross fit (so far) seems like the best way to get the desired results without torturing myself with rough diets. Cardio w/Cross fit is not the same as standard cardio, you get your ass kicked and workout your muscles @ the same time, I also like the group aspect.
As for you wasting your time....Do whatever you want. I could care less if you try it or not. For me, I have no doubt I will lose a lot of fat without severe muscle loss and be in great shape for rugby season with crossfit.
Last edited by MadFlabby; 11-29-2011 at 10:25 PM..
The problem is that crossfit takes exercises like clean and jerks and dead lifts, that are meant to be performed once with significant rest between sets, and starts doing multiple reps. That alone is bad enough, but when you start timing them, form naturally tends to fall apart. It completely defies all logic.
Says who? If you are training for powerlifting/o-lifting competitions, sure. There is more than one way to train because there is more than one goal set out there. Again, I did 100 deadlifts just last night, there was nothing wrong with my form on any of them. Why? Because I pay attention to my form, ESPECIALLY when I start to fatigue, so that I don't get injured.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David
There is a substantial difference between some bozo using ****ty form in the gym and an entire workout philosophy that promotes poor form by design.
There is nothing that says you have to have poor form to do the movements quickly at what are the usual perscribed weights. 185lb deadlift is quite light, in the grand scheme of things. I think people see excercisers with "poor form" and blaming the methodology is the easy way out. We should also take the time to differentiate between poor/bad form and *dangerous* form. No?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David
I think we've pretty well covered why crossfit's randomized training style sucks, haven't we?
Oh, I certainly know how YOU feel about it, yes. That's why I wasn't asking YOU, I was asking creatine how he/she felt.
Then those people you've seen did not scale the workout appropriately and their coaches should have corrected them.
I'm doing a workout tonight that is:
10 rounds for time -
10 deadlifts @ 185lbs
10 push-ups
I can guarantee that I will keep a completely neutral lower spine during all 100 reps. I can probably even get a video for you, if you'd like.
This whole "I've seen people doing CrossFit with horrible form" argument really makes no sense to me. Are you telling me that you've never seen some dude in the gym with horrible bench/squat/deadlift form? Does that mean that powerlifting is to blame? No, obviously not. So why do you hold CrossFit to a higher standard? Because the classes are coached/supervised?
Also, please explain the "no rhyme or reason" bit? Surely you're not suggesting that having dedicated days for a specific movement or muscle group is the only effective way to work out?
+1 to all that. Ive argued with people before that want to say that CF injures people for reason the guy you quoted stated. That's not the programming's fault....it's the individual and the coach, or a combo of both.
Sorry, but that's not correct. Cardio is far inferior to properly setup resistance training, even for weight loss. Resistance training results in increased metabolism for several hours after a workout and builds muscle which in itself increases metabolism. Cardio does not neither.
It's actually as simple as calories in v. calories out. Create a deficit and you will lose weight.
I was only rebutting the "cardio totally sucks for weight loss" statement you made. However, I can guarantee you that if you take someone who just does resistance training with a proper diet, and someone who does a combo of resistance training mixed with cardio built in(whether it be circuit training, sprints, distance running) with a proper diet, the latter will see a greater impact with regards to weight loss.
As far as calories and such, you are partly right, but it still depends on what you eat. Take two people who consume 2k calories a day. One eats a diet of proteins, fats, and some carbs, with very little sugar intake. The other eats sugary and carby stuff. They do the same workout. The latter will either see no change in weight or gain, simply because their insulin levels will stay spiked(which is what triggers fat storage) because of the sugars and starchy carbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco
There is a substantial difference between some bozo using ****ty form in the gym and an entire workout philosophy that promotes poor form by design
ahhhh, Bosco spewing more myths he heard from a fat guy doing curls in front of a mirror. CF in no way promotes poor form. Like Hooligan, as an experienced CFer, I always make it a focus to never lose form even on higher rep lifts.
But because you said there is a significant difference, let's have a scenario: Take Hooligans workout he posted. Let's say that hypothetically, he loses form slightly on the last 2 or 3 reps. Now being that 185 is a very light deadlift, he sees no consequence from this. Now, take a Globo gym lifter, who is doing a heavy 1 rep max, and completely jacks up the form. You tell me which is more dangerous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco
I think we've pretty well covered why crossfit's randomized training style sucks, haven't we?
ummm no, you still havent explained why people, even people who crossover from mech routines like myself, see significant increases in their overall fitness level.
Seriously, I want you to explain this to me: I did my mech routines(with cardio days built in) in what science considers the prime for a male, which is usually in the 18-25 range. I devoted myself to my workouts, and busted my butt 4-6 days a week, and did see some great results as far as muscle building goes......diet was spot on as well. Fast forward to when I was 26, which is when I started CF. after about 3 or 4 months in, I was amazed at where CF took my fitness level, which is really what got me hooked, and also amazed at just how great I felt on a day to day basis. Now, since you state that CF sucks and simple weight training is better, explain to me how what I just described could be.
As for things not adding up.....I have a power lifter build (big chest, big shoulders, big back, big belly), and I guess I'm lazy, lifting heavy and eating whatever has always been easier than pure bodybuilding. I have always lifted heavy. Yes i ran the marathons during phases where I ran a ton ( was not fast, I finished in just over 5 hours). I lost about 25 lbs during my training. I don't like to starve myself, it's about quality of life for me. Cross fit (so far) seems like the best way to get the desired results without torturing myself with rough diets. Cardio w/Cross fit is not the same as standard cardio, you get your ass kicked and workout your muscles @ the same time, I also like the group aspect.
As for you wasting your time....Do whatever you want. I could care less if you try it or not. For me, I have no doubt I will lose a lot of fat without severe muscle loss and be in great shape for rugby season with crossfit.
I actually thought I was wasting my time because I didn't figure you'd come back and reply. There is a pattern on this forum where people will join up, post, and never be seen again.
Moving on, it's clear that you really don't have a ton of nutritional knowledge. I don't want it to sound like I'm attacking you, but you say you "don't want to starve yourself" and want to maintain your muscle. If you've been a powerlifter in any legitimate sense, you should already know how to achieve these goals. In any case, what you're going to need to do is get a substantial calorie deficit going and continue lifting weights. You shouldn't have to starve yourself at all, and you can always try the meat and protein heavy low carb variant to keep yourself full. Of course you can always just go with a more macronutrient balanced diet with reduced portions. Neither of which should be that hard unless you try reaching some insane calorie deficit. For your weight lifting, you can substitute some weight for higher reps, like in the 12-20 range. This will ensure you retain the muscle you have and help to burn off a little more calories than you would with less reps and higher weight.
Biologically speaking, there is really no legitimate way to lose fat and retain muscle without those calorie deficits and weight lifting. The limited amount of weight lifting you do in crossfit will NOT prevent you from losing substantial strength, and I'll remind you that it's easier and quicker to lose weight than it is to build muscle. Ultimately the choice is yours though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan
Says who? If you are training for powerlifting/o-lifting competitions, sure. There is more than one way to train because there is more than one goal set out there. Again, I did 100 deadlifts just last night, there was nothing wrong with my form on any of them. Why? Because I pay attention to my form, ESPECIALLY when I start to fatigue, so that I don't get injured.
There is nothing that says you have to have poor form to do the movements quickly at what are the usual perscribed weights. 185lb deadlift is quite light, in the grand scheme of things. I think people see excercisers with "poor form" and blaming the methodology is the easy way out. We should also take the time to differentiate between poor/bad form and *dangerous* form. No?
Easy. For decades, NOBODY was doing deadlifts and clean and jerks in this manner, because they knew what a horrible idea it was. It wasn't until crossfit came along that such nonsense started being used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wcu25rs
I was only rebutting the "cardio totally sucks for weight loss" statement you made. However, I can guarantee you that if you take someone who just does resistance training with a proper diet, and someone who does a combo of resistance training mixed with cardio built in(whether it be circuit training, sprints, distance running) with a proper diet, the latter will see a greater impact with regards to weight loss.
As far as calories and such, you are partly right, but it still depends on what you eat. Take two people who consume 2k calories a day. One eats a diet of proteins, fats, and some carbs, with very little sugar intake. The other eats sugary and carby stuff. They do the same workout. The latter will either see no change in weight or gain, simply because their insulin levels will stay spiked(which is what triggers fat storage) because of the sugars and starchy carbs.
ahhhh, Bosco spewing more myths he heard from a fat guy doing curls in front of a mirror. CF in no way promotes poor form. Like Hooligan, as an experienced CFer, I always make it a focus to never lose form even on higher rep lifts.
But because you said there is a significant difference, let's have a scenario: Take Hooligans workout he posted. Let's say that hypothetically, he loses form slightly on the last 2 or 3 reps. Now being that 185 is a very light deadlift, he sees no consequence from this. Now, take a Globo gym lifter, who is doing a heavy 1 rep max, and completely jacks up the form. You tell me which is more dangerous.
ummm no, you still havent explained why people, even people who crossover from mech routines like myself, see significant increases in their overall fitness level.
Seriously, I want you to explain this to me: I did my mech routines(with cardio days built in) in what science considers the prime for a male, which is usually in the 18-25 range. I devoted myself to my workouts, and busted my butt 4-6 days a week, and did see some great results as far as muscle building goes......diet was spot on as well. Fast forward to when I was 26, which is when I started CF. after about 3 or 4 months in, I was amazed at where CF took my fitness level, which is really what got me hooked, and also amazed at just how great I felt on a day to day basis. Now, since you state that CF sucks and simple weight training is better, explain to me how what I just described could be.
Dude, if you're going to post here, would you at least try to know what you're talking about?
- Your contention is that a combo of resistance and cardio will beat just straight resistance. Well no ****, Sherlock. Why not argue that someone doing twice as much work as someone else will lose more than the other person? Both are equally groundbreaking statements.
Now, you want to see what the results would be of resistance alone vs. cardio alone, since that was the point I was making?
- I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said, but when it comes to weight loss, a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. It does not matter where they come from. All these people who talk about insulin spikes are showing how severely behind the times they are. Need I remind you of the twinkie diet guy?
So you can learn something on the insulin spikes...commentary from Lyle McDonald below. As for why you feel better, could be many things. Without knowing exactly what your previous and current routines were, it's hard to say. It could also be as simple as the placebo effect.
Quote:
JH: In a recent chat we had you informed me the glucagon had no direct effect
on fat cells? Yet many people are under this assumption. What is glucagons
regulatory role in regards to metabolism?
LM: Glucagon is very lipolytic in rats which is where the idea came from.
Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to affect fat cells in humans.
Rather, glucagon's primary role in humans is to affect liver
metabolism, mainly to mobilize liver glycogen to make sure that blood
glucose stays stable. So think about what happens when you eat a
protein only meal, both insulin and glucagon go up. Now, if only
insulin went up, blood glucose would crash (because you didn't eat
any carbs). By increasing glucagon a the same time the body
maintains normal blood glucose concentrations.
JH: Do you agree with the food combining theory of high fat/ high protein,
high protein/ high carb, but never high fat/ high carb?
LM: Short answer: no. Although I don't disagree that eating too many
calories (which can occur with certain carb/fat foods) is probably a
bad idea (see comments below).
Longer answer: The newest version of this fad appears to be based on
a 10 year old outdate model where only insulin is important in
storing calories as the rationale is that you don't want to increase
insulin when there is dietary fat in your system. As the logic goes:
insulin is a storage hormone, insulin stores fat, if you raise
insulin when you eat fat, you get fat.
A couple of problems right off the bat.
#1: Protein does a decent job of raising insulin and it takes very
very little insulin to affect fat cell metabolism. #2: Dietary fat
affects fat cell metabolism with NO INCREASE in insulin. At least
two studies, using oral fat loading found a decrease in HSL and an
activation of fat storage despite no increase in insulin. The
apparent culprit, a little bastard called acylation stimulation
protein (ASP) which is activated by the presence of chylomicrons
(basically packaged triglycerides that are found in the bloodstream
after the meal). ASP increases glucose uptake into the fat cell,
increases insulin release from the pancreas and has been described as
'the most potent stimulator of triglyceride storage' in the fat cells.
I think that if food combining works in any fashion, it's because it
controls people's food intake. Basically, compared to a diet where
you can eat carbs and fat (the primary energy providing nutrients to
the body) at all of your meals, setting up a diet where you can only
eat one or the other at any given meal automatically tends to limit
calorie intake even if people think they are 'eating as much as they
want'. Since you can only eat fat at three meals/day, you end up
eating less of it than you would eating an uncontrolled diet where
you can eat fat at every meal. Same for concentrated carbs (which
can easily provide a lot of calories).
Also, a lot of people turn stupid when they bulk, they rationalize
that they 'need' that pint of ice cream or tray of cookies to gain
weight. Which means that they eat too many calories and that's why
they get fat. If food combining prevents them from doing that (and
it does, but so does not eating like a lazy ass pig), of course it
will 'work' in some fashion.
I think it's important to note that the primary advocate of food
combining (at least, the guy who repopularized what is really a very
old idea) has recently made modifications to his original scheme.
Now unprocessed carbs such as potatoes and beans and other low GI
fare (veggies, of course) are allows with the protein/fat meals.
My question to him: What did he think people were eating with their
protein/fat meals? Jelly beans and cake? So, basically, his food
combining plan now allows meals to consist of protein, vegetables,
low GI/unprocessed carbs and fat. Meaning that it took him several
years to get right back to what just about every bodybuilding
nutritionist ever has been recommending. Hooray for progress.
JH:Would you recommend an insulin spike in the meal following the post
workout shake or meal?
LM: Yes. A combination of fat digesting high GI carbs with some fast
acting protein. The hyperinsulinemia will shut down cortisol and
protein breakdown and the hyperaminoacidemia will stimulate protein
synthesis. Net effect is protein gain and a shift from catabolism to
anabolism. Fat and fiber should be avoided at this meal.
...Easy. For decades, NOBODY was doing deadlifts and clean and jerks in this manner, because they knew what a horrible idea it was. It wasn't until crossfit came along that such nonsense started being used...
Really? Prior to CrossFit no one was doing high rep, relatively low weight, HIIT/Tabata style workouts with these lifts?
I actually thought I was wasting my time because I didn't figure you'd come back and reply. There is a pattern on this forum where people will join up, post, and never be seen again.
Moving on, it's clear that you really don't have a ton of nutritional knowledge. I don't want it to sound like I'm attacking you, but you say you "don't want to starve yourself" and want to maintain your muscle. If you've been a powerlifter in any legitimate sense, you should already know how to achieve these goals. In any case, what you're going to need to do is get a substantial calorie deficit going and continue lifting weights. You shouldn't have to starve yourself at all, and you can always try the meat and protein heavy low carb variant to keep yourself full. Of course you can always just go with a more macronutrient balanced diet with reduced portions. Neither of which should be that hard unless you try reaching some insane calorie deficit. For your weight lifting, you can substitute some weight for higher reps, like in the 12-20 range. This will ensure you retain the muscle you have and help to burn off a little more calories than you would with less reps and higher weight.
Biologically speaking, there is really no legitimate way to lose fat and retain muscle without those calorie deficits and weight lifting. The limited amount of weight lifting you do in crossfit will NOT prevent you from losing substantial strength, and I'll remind you that it's easier and quicker to lose weight than it is to build muscle. Ultimately the choice is yours though.
Easy. For decades, NOBODY was doing deadlifts and clean and jerks in this manner, because they knew what a horrible idea it was. It wasn't until crossfit came along that such nonsense started being used.
Dude, if you're going to post here, would you at least try to know what you're talking about?
- Your contention is that a combo of resistance and cardio will beat just straight resistance. Well no ****, Sherlock. Why not argue that someone doing twice as much work as someone else will lose more than the other person? Both are equally groundbreaking statements.
Now, you want to see what the results would be of resistance alone vs. cardio alone, since that was the point I was making?
- I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said, but when it comes to weight loss, a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. It does not matter where they come from. All these people who talk about insulin spikes are showing how severely behind the times they are. Need I remind you of the twinkie diet guy?
So you can learn something on the insulin spikes...commentary from Lyle McDonald below. As for why you feel better, could be many things. Without knowing exactly what your previous and current routines were, it's hard to say. It could also be as simple as the placebo effect.
sorry dude, just to keep it simple.....foods that spike insulin will cause fat storage and eating the same calories with those foods over healthier options will result in weight gain. That's as simple as it gets.
And as for a placebo effect......that's absolutely hilarious!
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