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Old 07-16-2014, 06:38 PM
 
5,816 posts, read 15,863,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k350 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawaiiancoconut View Post
They're trained with weapons and a gun is a great equalizer.
It is pretty much assumed not taking a weapon of any sort into account in this thread. What kind of discussion would that be?
Throughout the thread, there have been posts pointing out that weapons would give the uniformed woman in question an advantage. These are just two of the more recent posts dealing with that reality, so I'm citing them as examples.

I looked back at the opening post, and the OP does not specify whether the question applies to situations that allow for the use of weapons, or strictly to barehanded fighting. I'll agree with K350 that it makes the most sense to assume we're talking about barehanded. Of course anyone who is armed has a decided advantage over pretty much anyone who's not, but the only way this thread topic even remotely fits the exercise and fitness forum is for us to talk about barehanded fighting. That way at least you're talking about physical power, which can be enhanced through exercise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k350 View Post
Many people in police type positions take additional classes on top of what the position offers.
I'm not sure how many do this, but you're correct in the view that additional training on their own would be needed for cops to have serious fighting skills. I'm not sure about the military, as I've had no military experience, but I have had past experience in law enforcement. I can tell you from experience that the self-defense training you get in police academy basic training does not make you some kind of killing machine. Far from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JennyMominRI View Post
Im a former WM, woman Marine and most men and a lot of women could kick my butt in a physical altercation. I am 5 ft 3.
But as someone else said, the rifle is a great equalizer and once upon a time I was a Rifle Expert
I think JennyMominRI has it about right, at least where law enforcement is concerned. Most female cops whose only training in self-defense was what they learned at the academy would be no match for a man of even reasonable strength. That is, if we're talking about being alone with the man in a barehanded fight. What saves them is the combination of weapons and the fact that most of the time all they have to manage to do is briefly hold their own, and then backup will arrive and it will no longer be one-on-one.
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Old 07-16-2014, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Chicago
4,745 posts, read 5,539,004 times
Reputation: 6007
Quote:
Originally Posted by k350 View Post
He said years ago; it was only a few decades since Arnold was winning powerlifting comps with an under 400lbs bench; people are benching in and around this routinely now days.

And a comparison of Olympic male and female lifters should give you a clue regarding the differences between the two in the same weight classes. Another poster on here a ways back shoed this in detail.
Actually, that chick used a bench shirt for her 500 pound lift. Without the shirt she can only do about 325 or so.
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:18 AM
 
366 posts, read 490,679 times
Reputation: 751
As someone who has spent his life in hand to hand fighting arts professionally and for sport and trained several female fighters I can tell you the answer is: no.

Every time I see these hollywood fantasy films with women fighting men hand to hand it makes me cringe that some women might think they really could stand toe to toe with a man. About the only way a woman defeats the average man is a highly trained woman, one likely trained in Judo and maybe jujitsu...aikido won't cut it nor will mixed martial arts. The woman's advantage is a lower center of gravity and surprise and in judo type situations that is a huge advantage but it takes constant practice to pull it off when under stress. That is why I said Judo, MMA is okay for men but a woman needs to hone her best tool and that is her low center of gravity. There is too much diversity in a MMA approach when you are dealing with sexual dimorphism.

Outside of that you are dealing with a physics problem. Joint locks and pins require leverage and even a typical man can out muscle the leverage most women can exert. Now if she strikes first she may be able to get the lock on, but the man will likely be able to resist long enough to tire her out especially if he has had a few beers. And when it comes to striking she is likely giving up reach and mass, so all she has is acceleration, if she takes out an eye, then she may be able to take him...other than that, not too likely. I have seen too many female kickboxers who got in over the head very quickly and were badly psychologically damaged as a result.

I rememberer a state title holder back in the late 80s in a bar I had to bail out. She kicked the guy in the thigh and punched him in the head, hurting her hand, he grabbed both her wrists in both hands and brought his leg up to protect his groin and forcefully kissed her, by the time I got across the dance floor she was one her knees crying as he was crushing her wrists...he was just a clod who had few too many beers and he handled her with ease...she was devastated mentally...it was sad. I wished I could have hurt the guy more than I did just on principle but the bar would have been sued.
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:31 AM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
23,529 posts, read 13,752,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd_96 View Post
Do you think female marines, policewomen, FBI agents, etc. could take on the average man? Are they trained for that?
SURE!

But you better believe it is not going to be a face to face, head on, fair fight.

It's going to maximize all advantages at hand and probably use some very dirty tricks.

A thing or two. Way back in college, I was criticize for out turning people and attacking them from behind. That was not honorable......but an infantry general reminded me that in a street fight, there is no honor.

I had another comrade (or it may have been the same one who said the above, I don't recall now) who told me that if it ever came to blows, he would attack me in my sleep. I commented that wasn't too fair, to which he replied that it was the only way for him to do it since he didn't have the hand to hand background that I did......and he did have a point.

Long story short, we're humans, we have brains, and we use them to fight to win, whether it's infantry going into battle with 3X superiority (in whatever means) or ambushing someone from behind.

You don't fight equal, you don't fight fair........you fight to win.
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Old 08-18-2014, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Princeton
1,078 posts, read 1,409,177 times
Reputation: 2158
No! that said, A Soldier, an Officer, or an Agent always take two things into account OPSEC/PERSEC, that being said, if you find yourself in CQC you already placed yourself in a dangerous position, man or woman, at this point, it's survival, you need to train your mind set and skill set to do whatever it takes to take down the threat, what ever it takes, Service pistol, boot knife / revolver, car antenna, belt buckle and the likes, the point is this, you suppress the threat and do the "take down" maybe even permanently.

I once had a young recruit ask, he said, would I be considered trigger happy during a seven panel interview, if I answered just about everything they threw at me with,

keeping in mind, two key points

1) end of shift home to my wife and kids
2) partner
3) everything else, I answered back and said, now how hard was that?

The young recruit successfully passed each stage on a very difficult interview, and he shipped to the academy.
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Old 08-19-2014, 11:05 PM
 
300 posts, read 437,044 times
Reputation: 219
“I think that if we treated our girls with the same respect and initiative that we treat boys and expect them to live up to the standards we set them instead of lowering the standards for the girls to meet, I think we will do much better and I think we will have a lot more females in the military, in aviation, just running the world,” said Voorhees during an interview May 15, 2013. ---

Female Rescue Swimmer Makes Coast Guard History | Military.com
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Old 08-19-2014, 11:20 PM
 
Location: SouthEast
166 posts, read 241,779 times
Reputation: 344
In general no. There are always exceptions but as a rule no. People have seen too many Hollywood movies where a 110lb woman takes out a bad guy with a single punch.

My ex wife was a police officer. She was as tough as they come. She was shot twice during a routine traffic stop and lived to see the perp get his. She was definitely above average in mindset, attitude and physical ability. She walked around at about 135-145lb and was 5'4". I'm obviously above average at 6'3" and when we were married I weighed about 190lbs. She hit me closed fist with everything she had, twice, right in the mouth. I took it, and pushed her away. Had I hit her it would have been devastatingly bad in so many ways. I wasn't in fear for my life and don't hit women. The fear for my life part came later when she pointed a gun at me, a big reason why she is my ex. She thought I was cheating (I wasn't).

After nearly 20 years in the military I've been able to form a pretty good opinion based on a lot of real world results. The physical fitness standard test criteria are different for a reason. Most women cannot complete infantry training because of the physical demands. Before anyone claims average vs average it is a fair comparison. You are taking the above average males but you are also taking the above average females in the military as well so its a fair comparison.
As to the OPs question most women in the military, police and such have received some amount of extra training but in general this is not enough to overpower, disable or defeat a determined adversary if he is average.

With all that said, you don't need to be able to carry 90lbs for 15 miles in every job. A calm head under pressure, applying good decision making skills and the ability to think independently are not exclusive to one sex.
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Old 08-20-2014, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
23,529 posts, read 13,752,914 times
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"You're going to take what you can get."

That's what an instructor told us at the end of a deadly force training session where I brought up the point of serious differences between fighters and the "need" to make your first hits in potentially lethal areas.

Hence, that brings us to 3 points.

First, if one fights fair or only defensively, they stand an excellent chance of losing it badly.

Secondly, but that does put one in a rather difficult situation in that they are going into the fight with the full realization and therefore the intent to kill.....and if it does happen, that tends not to go over well afterwards. It may not be so bad on a military standpoint, but using militarized fighting in the civilian world is not well greeted by civilians especially since.....

Third, many people see fighting HtH as something not as deadly as shooting someone, as something at worse that two men till they've beaten the Thanksgiving stuffing out of each other and that's it.

It's pure desperation and one is going to take as much as they can, as soon as they can, with whatever they can, before the other guy can respond.

It's like what I said in the police shooting debate. Kicking the feet out from the other guy and slamming him face first into the pavement is probably as brutal as shooting him......and it stands an excellent way to take the fight out of him.

One's a fool to fight toe to toe....because the other guy probably won't.
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Old 08-29-2014, 03:42 PM
 
2,209 posts, read 2,301,200 times
Reputation: 3421
Quote:
Originally Posted by usagisan View Post
As someone who has spent his life in hand to hand fighting arts professionally and for sport and trained several female fighters I can tell you the answer is: no.

Every time I see these hollywood fantasy films with women fighting men hand to hand it makes me cringe that some women might think they really could stand toe to toe with a man. About the only way a woman defeats the average man is a highly trained woman, one likely trained in Judo and maybe jujitsu...aikido won't cut it nor will mixed martial arts. The woman's advantage is a lower center of gravity and surprise and in judo type situations that is a huge advantage but it takes constant practice to pull it off when under stress. That is why I said Judo, MMA is okay for men but a woman needs to hone her best tool and that is her low center of gravity. There is too much diversity in a MMA approach when you are dealing with sexual dimorphism.

Outside of that you are dealing with a physics problem. Joint locks and pins require leverage and even a typical man can out muscle the leverage most women can exert. Now if she strikes first she may be able to get the lock on, but the man will likely be able to resist long enough to tire her out especially if he has had a few beers. And when it comes to striking she is likely giving up reach and mass, so all she has is acceleration, if she takes out an eye, then she may be able to take him...other than that, not too likely. I have seen too many female kickboxers who got in over the head very quickly and were badly psychologically damaged as a result.

I rememberer a state title holder back in the late 80s in a bar I had to bail out. She kicked the guy in the thigh and punched him in the head, hurting her hand, he grabbed both her wrists in both hands and brought his leg up to protect his groin and forcefully kissed her, by the time I got across the dance floor she was one her knees crying as he was crushing her wrists...he was just a clod who had few too many beers and he handled her with ease...she was devastated mentally...it was sad. I wished I could have hurt the guy more than I did just on principle but the bar would have been sued.
I'd be afraid to fight Rhonda Rousey.
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Old 08-29-2014, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Idaho
811 posts, read 732,668 times
Reputation: 1603
MY fiance's 16 year old girl cousin hold a third degree black belt in TaeKwonDo. While we were visiting last year, we went to watch her spar. She got put up against a man with a first degree black belt that had a good 7 inches and 80 pounds on her. Right before they started he made a snide comment about going easy on her. He walked away from that with a broken nose, a black eye, and deeply wounded pride....so yes.
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