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Old 01-29-2013, 06:15 AM
 
Location: In a cave
946 posts, read 789,586 times
Reputation: 716

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanonGrace View Post
"most women have low self esteem".....and you know this how?

Oh, right, conjecture.

I am sure you are a troll, I don't know why I am bothering to answer, maybe it's because I have had one of those days and you seem like easy pickings but here we go.......

It is ignorant and asinine to reduce the subject of makeup to a statement around self esteem. That may make for a cute soundbite on an ABC Family teen movie, but the reality is way more complex.

First of all, People communicate in many different ways including nonverbally via mannerisms, and yes, appearance. How a person presents themselves publicly determines how they will be perceived. Further--we are hardwired and conditioned to judge people first on how they look and that is a good thing. You can gain a lot of valuable information from a person's exterior....from health, to competence, to power, to approachability etc etc.

Further--what's really interesting is that we don't look for people to be pretty, per se, but rather take subconscious cues as to how they take care of themselves. By their choices relating to clothes, hairstyle and personal fitness, a person can communicate where they fall on a range of:

competence
social status
education
personality
sexuality
openness

...and so on.

Makeup is but one aspect of social appearance. Yes--it is often used to make women more sexually attractive but more often than not, it is just part of a person's social persona. So when a woman makes a choice to put makeup on, they are doing it for a myriad of reasons: to communicate confidence, self care, youthfulness and yes, attractiveness for the purposes of furthering their impact on the interactions of their day. They don't do it "just to get some" as the Cro-Magnon brained OP implied but rather because they are smart and savvy and know that makeup is one of the tools in their arsenals. Additionally, like with many other artistic choices, they use makeup for self expression......

Finally, I'd like to draw your attention to the expression you used "self esteem" which translates into SELF CARE. If a person doesn't esteem themselves, they will put very little care and investment into their social persona. That is why RESEARCH SHOWS a direct correlation between sociability, self esteem and the use of personal care products such a makeup, perfume and nice clothes.
You cited no research, but I did. Please save me from your tirade, it is riddled with foolishness.

Self esteem does not translate to "self care", I am not quite sure where you go this notion from but it is again incorrect and you pretending you know what you are taking about.

Further more, this little gem you dropped if beyond laughable.
Quote:
If a person doesn't esteem themselves, they will put very little care and investment into their social persona. That is why RESEARCH SHOWS a direct correlation between sociability, self esteem and the use of personal care products such a makeup, perfume and nice clothes.
This is not true, and most materialistic people typically are considered to be compensating for inherent traits they feel are inadequate. Therefore the level "self care" (who the hell knows what this means, its so subjective but I will play along.) is going to be higher on materialistic people (tanning, makeup, high priced clothes, fake highlights, tattoos, insert vanity/trendy item here) than those who are more at peace or higher self esteem.

The amount of ignorant comments from presumably women who get outraged over my responses or others who do not agree with their assertions are hilarious and at the same time sad. It shows you the emotional response a psychological critique of some women (those who adamantly defend makeup and give disingenuous reasons) really can provide a keen indicator of those who are clearly less emotionally stable and rational than others.
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:34 PM
 
4,267 posts, read 5,140,780 times
Reputation: 3579
Quote:
Originally Posted by derosterreich View Post
N
I honestly don't get caught up on looks 24/7, it is a big part to any relationship but like I said before I would rather date/marry a naturally pretty (in my eyes, doesn't have to try and be a supermodel) nerdier-type that has brains, stimulating conversation about science, politics, economics, philosophy and just simply is comfortable with herself versus a makeup wearing, bleach blonde, tanning bed using, cheerleader type. I think it is why I gravitate towards asian (currently with Chinese woman) women more so now than I did when I was younger, they seem to be more down to earth and more resistant to vain societal pressures and I find many of them extremely beautiful, and usually they are just being themselves and have priorities that I cherish.
What's with the big black and white generalizations. I wear makeup, it takes 5 minutes to put on. I also enjoy stimulating conversations about science, history, politics, philosophy, etc. I rarely do anything to my hair other then wash it and comb it. 80% of my clothes come from the thrift store, the other 20% come from places like Target. I have never been a cheerleader, never been to a tanning salon, never bleached my hair. Yet I must be shallow, materialistic and have low self esteem because I wear makeup? Give me a break.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:30 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
2,942 posts, read 4,217,913 times
Reputation: 3401
@ Derosterreich, you didn't answer my question. Are men who shave, use hair gel, put on cologne, do a combover if they're getting bald, work out to become more muscular, wear designer suits, etc. also "compensating for inherent traits they feel are inadequate" or does your criticism only apply to women? It's not like men aren't equally "guilty" of enhacing their appearance to become more appealing to themselves and/or to others. They just use different methods. You keep focusing on the fact that women wear make-up and men (typically) don't as if that somehow proves that women are more insecure and pre-occupied with their appearance. Well, I can turn it around and say men are more insecure and pre-occupied with their appearance because they are far more concerned with being muscular. Of course, that would be a silly thing to say because working out - just like make-up - is only one way to enhance your physical appearance and the reason women are more drawn to make-up and men are more drawn to working out mostly has to do with cultural acceptance. Just because men like to be fit and muscular doesn't mean they're deeply insecure or desperate for female attention. Just because men put a little gel in their hair doesn't mean they're ashamed of what their hair looks like in its natural state.

It's clear that you are not interested in what women have to say about their reasons for wearing make-up because you have already decided they're being "disingenuous" if they don't agree with you. Maybe your view of women comes from personal experience because if you are this obnoxious in real life, you'd have to have a pretty damn low self-esteem as a woman to put up with you.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:10 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
72,668 posts, read 64,140,481 times
Reputation: 68453
Quote:
Originally Posted by derosterreich View Post
Being a male, I personally don't wear make-up or know many men that wear make-up. Is there a reason women, especially married or "taken" women using make-up for work, family gatherings, shopping, etc feel the need to improve their sex appeal for no logical reason?

Isn't the point of make-up to make you look better than you naturally are?

Isn't this done on some level to overly represent your natural features to attract a mate/partner/husband?

If you are OK with your partner seeing you without make-up and feel comfortable with it, why do you feel the need to showoff to strangers that have less importance in your life in a fake and sexually improved facade?

Is a pure and natural look unacceptable to women because they don't feel their looks acceptable for public consumption? What is the goal of make-up in day to day life?
You're assuming all women wear make-up. LOTS of women don't wear it, never have, never will. If you prefer women who don't wear make-up, seek them out. Don't worry. Be happy.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
39 posts, read 46,004 times
Reputation: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by derosterreich View Post
I humbly disagree and so does the psychological community.
Blanket statement ... give us a link that proves this statement as factual or stop inserting utter BS.

You really love painting everyone with a broad based brush.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:55 AM
 
Location: In a cave
946 posts, read 789,586 times
Reputation: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindavG View Post
@ Derosterreich, you didn't answer my question. Are men who shave, use hair gel, put on cologne, do a combover if they're getting bald, work out to become more muscular, wear designer suits, etc. also "compensating for inherent traits they feel are inadequate" or does your criticism only apply to women? It's not like men aren't equally "guilty" of enhacing their appearance to become more appealing to themselves and/or to others. They just use different methods. You keep focusing on the fact that women wear make-up and men (typically) don't as if that somehow proves that women are more insecure and pre-occupied with their appearance. Well, I can turn it around and say men are more insecure and pre-occupied with their appearance because they are far more concerned with being muscular. Of course, that would be a silly thing to say because working out - just like make-up - is only one way to enhance your physical appearance and the reason women are more drawn to make-up and men are more drawn to working out mostly has to do with cultural acceptance. Just because men like to be fit and muscular doesn't mean they're deeply insecure or desperate for female attention. Just because men put a little gel in their hair doesn't mean they're ashamed of what their hair looks like in its natural state.

It's clear that you are not interested in what women have to say about their reasons for wearing make-up because you have already decided they're being "disingenuous" if they don't agree with you. Maybe your view of women comes from personal experience because if you are this obnoxious in real life, you'd have to have a pretty damn low self-esteem as a woman to put up with you.
I didn't see your response before, but of course men are subject to some parallels to makeup in their own regard.

I actually have a "friend" that has made a bizarre turn for the worse in my opinion and has started to paint his fingernails black, wears eyeliner and does odd hairstyles. He looks like a freak, and while the reason this is done deep down is anyone's guess, I suspect some sort of underlying issue. This just magnifies it because its culturally unacceptable for a man to wear makeup.

Do the same reasons women provide hold true for him? Is it simply "artwork" for "himself"?

As far as combovers, I would think that is pretty obvious that it is a futile attempt to falsify more hair than you have. Hair represents vitality, youth, health and no one wants to send the message to others that you are opposite of these traits. So yes, I agree those have similar psychological intentions to makeup.

The "working out" argument doesn't hold water for two reasons. There are practical applications for getting stronger and healthier which are main focus of working out. You have increased utility from all muscle groups strengthened, especially if you are into sports, manual labor or another area that requires muscle usage (there are a ton of applications). The second or first reason depending on your motives, is better overall health. You live longer, have more energy, etc, etc from being active.

The sculpting of the body is a byproduct of this, while I am sure some people solely workout for this reason the majority do not.

Last edited by derosterreich; 01-30-2013 at 06:08 AM..
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:59 AM
 
Location: In a cave
946 posts, read 789,586 times
Reputation: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pttsbrgher View Post
Blanket statement ... give us a link that proves this statement as factual or stop inserting utter BS.

You really love painting everyone with a broad based brush.
I already did in an earlier post, read before you jump in a 30+ page thread with your ignorance.
On top of that another poster also pasted some more studies which I cannot verify as scientific. The one I used was cited by a government/scientific research abstract.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:03 AM
 
Location: In a cave
946 posts, read 789,586 times
Reputation: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
You're assuming all women wear make-up. LOTS of women don't wear it, never have, never will. If you prefer women who don't wear make-up, seek them out. Don't worry. Be happy.
I never assumed that, I know most things do not hold true in all instances. I would have to presume the mass majority of women wear makeup though.

I do seek them out, I talk earlier about my personal relationship and admirable traits. I'm as happy as a clam, this thread just brings out the emotion in certain posters and they need do what they do.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
40,900 posts, read 32,658,014 times
Reputation: 57026
Quote:
Originally Posted by derosterreich View Post
You clearly don't live in reality. Again, yelling things louder (virtually) than others and slamming them personally doesn't make your point better. It only adds to the foolishness it represents.


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OMG most of these women are (gasp) WEARING MAKEUP.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:50 AM
 
Location: In a cave
946 posts, read 789,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
OMG most of these women are (gasp) WEARING MAKEUP.

Yaya the libertarian-when-its-convenient is back!
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