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Old 03-03-2012, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Maryland
62 posts, read 138,063 times
Reputation: 57

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Look up "Shut up little man" on you tube to get the reference and you'll see how it applies.

When you say "little man" assuming that is directed toward me, is that supposed to belittle my opinion?

While you are one of the people I was referring to you're certainly not the only one. Several people on this thread have gotten on their high horses when disagreeing with others, or when they've felt threatened by others who they perceive as getting on their high horses. I'm not belittling yours, and others' opinions, but rather your implicit assumption that they're more than just your opinions

You have every right to your opinions and I like hearing them or I wouldn't be following this thread. But don't expect me, or everyone, to agree with them. And don't get offended when someone disagrees with you. This is not addressed only to you, but to all of us, including me. I too often wonder why others can't see things as they really are, just like I do, and then I catch myself. Sometimes I don't catch myself and end up thinking my opinion is more than that.

I didn't say that your work was derivative drivel, copied from your namesake only because you can.

Derivative drivel - nice alliteration. I don't try to copy anyone. Klee is perhaps my favorite artist but most people mention Mondrian when they see my stuff. I don't think anyone's work is really original. It can all be broken to to elements and techniques that others have already done. You have to just keep on making what seems right to you. If you do, it will resonate with others. Not with everybody but enough people to make it worthwhile.

Try copying Gerome.
Why? Gerome's work doesn't do anything for me - realism doesn't do anything for me. In fact, I don't believe in reality.

Originally Posted by paulklee53
I don't care about technical prowess.
Once known as skill. This combined with an important message is what makes a good painting.


OK, call it skill. By itself, it doesn't do anything for me. I consider it neither necessary nor sufficient to produce art I like. I also disagree with you on the message stuff. A piece of art does not have to tell a story or represent a scene that either is or could be real. I like things that attract me but let me feel like they're responding to me.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Maryland
62 posts, read 138,063 times
Reputation: 57
Default "Little Man" Link/Clarification

This link will explain the "Little Man" reference made two posts back. I wasn't calling anyone here a little man. I was pointing out that there are times that the exchanges on here deteriorate to the level of what you'll hear when you watch this on YouTube.


Shut Up Little Man! An Audio Misadventure - clip (Eddie Can't Sleep) - YouTube
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Maryland
62 posts, read 138,063 times
Reputation: 57
Default There are differences between us.

I found a study that stated that stated that lovers of traditional art tend to be Republican and lovers of abstract art tend to be Democratic. Or conservative and liberal. Note the use of the word tend. I myself have been both over the years but I've always loved abstract art.

I also found this and it certainly jibes with my empirical experience in life. I've always thought that the people who actively dislike abstract art fell into two categories. Representational artists who were jealous, who aren't included in the study below, and people who like to feel that they're in control and that they know what's what. I realized a long time ago that I wasn't and never was going to be in control of things and, the more I learn, the more I'm aware of just how little I do know. It's at this url: Outside In: The Color of

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What should you hang on the walls? While armchair art aficionados claim that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, numerous studies show that most people prefer realistic and natural scenes to abstract or man-made ones. People with a high need for structure, in particular, negatively rate abstract paintings, according to a study published in the Journal of Personality & Social Psychology. Knowing the title of said abstract painting, however, gave these same sticklers for structure a more positive view. People who like abstract art tend to be sensation-seekers and more open to new experiences than those who prefer realistic art, according to a 2009 study published in Psychology of Aesthetics, Creativity and the Arts.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
19,353 posts, read 13,010,410 times
Reputation: 14057
Politics aside, I agree- I've found most folks like representative art more than abstract art.

Personally, I really enjoy a lot of abstract art. I'm not a good abstractionist, so I don't paint it, but it does influence my representational work in many ways. And, as a working artist, I want to sell paintings. There is a lot of room between photo-realism and abstraction, and that's my playing field, there in the middle, going back and forth. It seems to be working OK for me.

I don't care if a viewer is intolerant or not. I'm not out to make a statement, I am just a paint slinger, exploring my own thoughts. Some folks like my stuff, others not. Big deal.

Art is all in the beholder. We all come to a painting with different mentalities, differing notions of what constitutes right and wrong, different expectations, and different purposes for any art we purchase. Art education may instruct and modify someone's tastes, or not- I don't think of art as being necessarily instructional only, and I've found folks who know nothing at all of art history can enjoy art as eye candy that excites the brain as well.

I used to have a girlfriend whose only purpose in buying any painting was strictly ornamental. She liked a picture if it matched the drapery, or looked good above her piano, or complimented the wallpaper.

She owns one of my paintings- it has a lot of deep emotional content to me, and became a big challenge as it developed- one of those things that just grew harder and harder as it went along. It really satisfied me when it was finished, too. I never put it in a gallery or offered it for sale, but you know how it is with love.

She likes it because it looks good hanging above her blue couch.

Did that drive me nuts? Sometimes. I had the urge to try to put into words something that is entirely only visionally explainable, and words always fail.
So in the end, she's happy with her compliment to the blue couch, and I can live with that.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Maryland
62 posts, read 138,063 times
Reputation: 57
Default I agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
Politics aside, I agree- I've found most folks like representative art more than abstract art.

Personally, I really enjoy a lot of abstract art. I'm not a good abstractionist, so I don't paint it, but it does influence my representational work in many ways. And, as a working artist, I want to sell paintings. There is a lot of room between photo-realism and abstraction, and that's my playing field, there in the middle, going back and forth. It seems to be working OK for me.

I don't care if a viewer is intolerant or not. I'm not out to make a statement, I am just a paint slinger, exploring my own thoughts. Some folks like my stuff, others not. Big deal.

Art is all in the beholder. We all come to a painting with different mentalities, differing notions of what constitutes right and wrong, different expectations, and different purposes for any art we purchase. Art education may instruct and modify someone's tastes, or not- I don't think of art as being necessarily instructional only, and I've found folks who know nothing at all of art history can enjoy art as eye candy that excites the brain as well.

I used to have a girlfriend whose only purpose in buying any painting was strictly ornamental. She liked a picture if it matched the drapery, or looked good above her piano, or complimented the wallpaper.

She owns one of my paintings- it has a lot of deep emotional content to me, and became a big challenge as it developed- one of those things that just grew harder and harder as it went along. It really satisfied me when it was finished, too. I never put it in a gallery or offered it for sale, but you know how it is with love.

She likes it because it looks good hanging above her blue couch.

Did that drive me nuts? Sometimes. I had the urge to try to put into words something that is entirely only visionally explainable, and words always fail.
So in the end, she's happy with her compliment to the blue couch, and I can live with that.
I agree with pretty much everything you said Mike. I don't try to tell anybody anything with my art. Who cares what I have to say about anything? And if I were to tell them something and even if they agreed with me, what then? Are they going to want to have my art around so they can get the same message over and over again. The same is true for shocking people. You can only do it the first time they see it. And, that's if they're really shocked to begin with. What I consider shocking may not even raise one of your eyebrows.

Most people at galleries and shows walk right past work they don't like, as they should. Why should anyone waste time looking at something they don't like. I don't do that, if I have the time. I used to think I was "special" for wanting to look at everything and see how the artists did what they did, even if I really disliked the work. Then I read an article by a gallery owner who pointed out that that's exactly what all artists do, in addition to ignoring the gallery staff. Collectors and the public on the other hand usually say hi to the gallery staff and then look only at things that catch their eye. At least that what's the article said.

You said you're not a good abstractionist. Does that mean you were interested but didn't like your results? Many of the techniques used to make a good representational painting can't be used in an abstract piece - they'll only mess it up. It's hard to let go of something you're good at/with. Yet, there are people who do well in both worlds. However, I always imagine it to be a schizophrenic existence.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:30 PM
 
71 posts, read 251,228 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
People are not "intimidated" by post-modern art, they just don't like it. "intimidated" is one of those condescending words that people use to discourage an honest appraisal of some scratches and scribbles that an untalented person claims is his art.

When I see the word "intimidated" in this context I know immediately that the person using it disrespects the opinions of (most) people that the work is crap but because they have drunk the cool-aid themselves are afraid to consider the criticism as an expression by equals. I actually have to laugh because knowing so many artists and having been to hundreds of gallery shows and painting studios, I know that only the disturbed and the delusional among these post modernists actually believe in what they are doing. The vast majority are simply creating art that curators and gallery owners will put up simply because it is "intimidating."

And, faced with an utter inability to do representational work at the level of the Masters, these artists have to try on the Emperor's New Clothes" by hanging banners from windmills or whatnot, or get a job in an academic art department. It will be hilarious to art historians 300 years from now and will no doubt be seen as a lazy generation of persons who could not paint jumping on the stage to get their 15 seconds of fame."
-----------------------------------

I was going to actually respond to your comments, and then started laughing . There really is no point. Thank goodness art isn't limited to narrow personal preferences or definitions; there truly is something for every taste. Just because a artist's skill or technique isn't obvious to a viewer, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Last edited by Marka; 04-18-2012 at 06:55 AM..
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Maryland
62 posts, read 138,063 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShermanJoe2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
People are not "intimidated" by post-modern art, they just don't like it. "intimidated" is one of those condescending words that people use to discourage an honest appraisal of some scratches and scribbles that an untalented person claims is his art.

When I see the word "intimidated" in this context I know immediately that the person using it disrespects the opinions of (most) people that the work is crap but because they have drunk the cool-aid themselves are afraid to consider the criticism as an expression by equals. I actually have to laugh because knowing so many artists and having been to hundreds of gallery shows and painting studios, I know that only the disturbed and the delusional among these post modernists actually believe in what they are doing. The vast majority are simply creating art that curators and gallery owners will put up simply because it is "intimidating."

And, faced with an utter inability to do representational work at the level of the Masters, these artists have to try on the Emperor's New Clothes" by hanging banners from windmills or whatnot, or get a job in an academic art department. It will be hilarious to art historians 300 years from now and will no doubt be seen as a lazy generation of persons who could not paint jumping on the stage to get their 15 seconds of fame."
-----------------------------------

I was going to actually respond to your comments, and then started laughing . There really is no point. Thank goodness art isn't limited to narrow personal preferences or definitions; there truly is something for every taste. Just because a artist's skill or technique isn't obvious to a viewer, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
You're right, intimidated is a condescending word. However, maybe it's the right word. I know you don't think of yourself as feeling intimidated, you sure sound that way. It feels like you're lashing out in defense at those you perceive as trying to "intimidate" you. Just look at your comments that I've bolded.

As far as "And, faced with an utter inability to do representational work at the level of the Masters" goes, I'll just quote Vincent Van Gogh - "Those Dutchmen had hardly any imagination or fantasy, but their good taste and their scientific knowledge of composition were enormous." Sometimes, it's fun to just relax and have fun.

By the way, there's another poster on this forum that uses the exact same phrases you use and has the exact some opinions you have. Like you, he also apparently feels that he is an expert and knows everything there is to know about art. It's uncanny.

Last edited by Marka; 04-18-2012 at 06:55 AM..
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:51 AM
 
71 posts, read 251,228 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulklee53 View Post

By the way, there's another poster on this forum that uses the exact same phrases you use and has the exact some opinions you have. Like you, he also apparently feels that he is an expert and knows everything there is to know about art. It's uncanny.
Oh gawd, no! lol. I DON'T have the same opinion as the other poster. I wrote: "I was going to actually respond to your comments, and then started laughing . There really is no point. Thank goodness art isn't limited to narrow personal preferences or definitions; there truly is something for every taste. Just because a artist's skill or technique isn't obvious to a viewer, doesn't mean it doesn't exist."

Since I must not have been clear about what I was trying to say, I meant that it was pointless to try to argue with someone whose mind was so made up. I love many types of art, including mid-century New York School, so much so that I took an online course with MOMA (highly recommend) in order to better understand that period.

The reasons people are drawn to art are so varied, it's just not productive to argue that "my favorite art is better than your favorite art". Take what you enjoy, leave the rest and follow your heart and mind.

I'm a painter who works in both the representational and abstract.

Last edited by Marka; 04-18-2012 at 06:56 AM..
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Maryland
62 posts, read 138,063 times
Reputation: 57
Default Well then, I apologize...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShermanJoe2 View Post

Oh gawd, no! lol. I DON'T have the same opinion as the other poster. I wrote: "I was going to actually respond to your comments, and then started laughing . There really is no point. Thank goodness art isn't limited to narrow personal preferences or definitions; there truly is something for every taste. Just because a artist's skill or technique isn't obvious to a viewer, doesn't mean it doesn't exist."

Since I must not have been clear about what I was trying to say, I meant that it was pointless to try to argue with someone whose mind was so made up. I love many types of art, including mid-century New York School, so much so that I took an online course with MOMA (highly recommend) in order to better understand that period.

The reasons people are drawn to art are so varied, it's just not productive to argue that "my favorite art is better than your favorite art". Take what you enjoy, leave the rest and follow your heart and mind.

I'm a painter who works in both the representational and abstract.
Well then I apologize if I took what you said the wrong way, or if I insulted you. It's amazing how worked up everyone gets over art, including me, when in the end it's not really that important, not in the grand scheme of things.

My work ranges from abstract to totally non-represntational. I hear it all, both the good and the bad. I started off doing representational work, like everyone else does, but quickly realized that that wasn't where my interests lay. I was never anywhere near the technical level of the old masters, or even many of the contemporary realists. I was getting better and better at it and I realized that if I put in several years of intense work I would be good at it. Not because of any innate talent, but because of the hard work. Lot's of things are like that - it's the hard work that matters. However, as I said, it wasn't what called to me. I found myself being drawn more and more to geometric abstraction and abstract expressionism and that's where I went. And I'm glad I did. I'm good at it and getting better all the time, because of the hard work I put into it.

There are people out there who really do act like they're scared of anything unrecognizable. At some point it became clear to me that they act just like someone defending themselves. It's as if they feel others are laughing at them or questioning their sanity. So they "retaliate" in kind, in their minds at least.

When I started making art seven years ago, after a 35 year hiatus, I took evening extension courses offered by art schools, museums and individuals. I took an abstract painting course from a guy whom I had also taken two basic drawing courses from. By that time I knew that abstraction was for me. It was an interesting experience. There were people from all backgrounds in there. There were several people who struggled with the whole thing because you can't show people what to draw or paint because everything was, well, abstract. Two women in particular got mad and stomped out of the class, quitting several weeks into the class because they were looking for concrete instruction and the guy just couldn't give it. Not because he was lacking but because it's not really possible. I firmly believe you either have this stuff in you or you don't. Almost all of the seminal figures in abstraction started off as realists and I think they ended up as abstractionists because they had no choice - it was what called to them. Now, if you do have this in you, you still have to work hard at it to perfect your craft. It's just different. I have yet to attended a representational workshop or class session where I didn't learn several things I could use. However, I also realized that there's a lot you have to let go of. For example, when I'm doing abstract cityscapes and landscapes I use atmospheric perspective but I don't use linear perspective at all. If I do, then the piece becomes less abstract and more realistic and everything in it begs, or even demands to be represented with linear perspective, which makes it not abstract.

Anyway, this whole reaction to abstract, post-modern, etc art makes me want to ask people, "Why don't you just change the channel?" Why even bother looking at it. If a gallery has art in it you don't like then why not just leave. You can tell the gallery owner that there's nothing in there you like and why, but why waste time fuming over it, which is what some people do.

Anyway, how about posting some of your work on this site?

Last edited by Marka; 04-18-2012 at 06:57 AM..
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:55 PM
 
71 posts, read 251,228 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulklee53 View Post

Well then I apologize if I took what you said the wrong way, or if I insulted you. It's amazing how worked up everyone gets over art, including me, when in the end it's not really that important, not in the grand scheme of things.

My work ranges from abstract to totally non-represntational. I hear it all, both the good and the bad. I started off doing representational work, like everyone else does, but quickly realized that that wasn't where my interests lay. I was never anywhere near the technical level of the old masters, or even many of the contemporary realists. I was getting better and better at it and I realized that if I put in several years of intense work I would be good at it. Not because of any innate talent, but because of the hard work. Lot's of things are like that - it's the hard work that matters. However, as I said, it wasn't what called to me. I found myself being drawn more and more to geometric abstraction and abstract expressionism and that's where I went. And I'm glad I did. I'm good at it and getting better all the time, because of the hard work I put into it.

There are people out there who really do act like they're scared of anything unrecognizable. At some point it became clear to me that they act just like someone defending themselves. It's as if they feel others are laughing at them or questioning their sanity. So they "retaliate" in kind, in their minds at least.

When I started making art seven years ago, after a 35 year hiatus, I took evening extension courses offered by art schools, museums and individuals. I took an abstract painting course from a guy whom I had also taken two basic drawing courses from. By that time I knew that abstraction was for me. It was an interesting experience. There were people from all backgrounds in there. There were several people who struggled with the whole thing because you can't show people what to draw or paint because everything was, well, abstract. Two women in particular got mad and stomped out of the class, quitting several weeks into the class because they were looking for concrete instruction and the guy just couldn't give it. Not because he was lacking but because it's not really possible. I firmly believe you either have this stuff in you or you don't. Almost all of the seminal figures in abstraction started off as realists and I think they ended up as abstractionists because they had no choice - it was what called to them. Now, if you do have this in you, you still have to work hard at it to perfect your craft. It's just different. I have yet to attended a representational workshop or class session where I didn't learn several things I could use. However, I also realized that there's a lot you have to let go of. For example, when I'm doing abstract cityscapes and landscapes I use atmospheric perspective but I don't use linear perspective at all. If I do, then the piece becomes less abstract and more realistic and everything in it begs, or even demands to be represented with linear perspective, which makes it not abstract.

Anyway, this whole reaction to abstract, post-modern, etc art makes me want to ask people, "Why don't you just change the channel?" Why even bother looking at it. If a gallery has art in it you don't like then why not just leave. You can tell the gallery owner that there's nothing in there you like and why, but why waste time fuming over it, which is what some people do.

Anyway, how about posting some of your work on this site?
No apology necessary. I went back and looked and it was a post by Wilson513 that you may have thought was intended for you...regardless, we're all just passionate about our art.

It sounds like you and I are on a similar path...at one time I was an art major, but went off on another career path. After returning to painting many years after college I found that my interests had changed and I looked for more challenge and complexity.

If people simply don't like non-representational art....that's fine. They may be judging some work too soon if they've never seen it in person, though. Photos just don't do justice to so much of this stuff. But critics are very much in the dark if they don't think skill is involved in the creation of this type of work.

If I post anything I've done I'll let you know...how about seeing something you've done? Your city/landscapes sound very interesting.

Last edited by Marka; 04-18-2012 at 06:57 AM..
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