[dlhanson]

More money does nothing for government education --- if the children aren't learning it is their fault and their parent's fault. Many parents do not make education of their children a priority and do not take sufficient time to prepare their children for school. My wife taught our two sons to read when they were 3 years old and she home schooled them through high school. They and undergraduate and two graduate degrees each today.

The government school can't do what the parent won't do at home (I am not saying that all have to homeschool but a patient and loving mother can prepare her child for first grade and then keep them motivated throughout school far better than anyone else).

And I am vary opposed to spending tax money for rail also. If rail can't be done by 100% private investment with no operating subsidies then it shouldn't be done. Period.

[ferret111]

Originally Posted by dlhanson

And I am vary opposed to spending tax money for rail also. If rail can't be done by 100% private investment with no operating subsidies then it shouldn't be done. Period.

Not this argument again. If this was the case, every other public transportation system in the country aside from New York City and maybe DC and San Francisco would be shut down. We would have to shut down roads like the Suncoast Parkway, as it's been open for ten years and still hasn't turned a profit.

Private companies operated most city transportation systems until the 1940s and 50s and virtually all systems reverted to city ownership by the 70s, due to the lack of profit.

[mango23]

Originally Posted by chopchop0

Link? FL is in the middle of the pack for things like graduation rates, SAT scores, and other outcomes.

I actually just heard that figure on the radio today when it was being discussed. Even if it is not completely correct, it is sad that Florida's idea of success is mediocrity.
Everything is interconnected for future success. Florida can't expect to attract business and more families who spend their money and contribute to the local economies. The wealthy retired people I am sorry to say do not. You need working families to come to Florida and for that you need jobs and good communities and good schools.

Years ago when I was a kid worked for a pool room. I you have read many of my posts you know I have owned pool rooms as well as bars over the years. Anyway, one summer the air conditioning went out. They tried to fix it but it would not work most of the time. Amazingly some still people came in and played many without their shirts. This place had an absentee owner and I did pretty much everything. When I told him we needed to get a new air conditioner like it or not, I will never forget his answer.
He said, " I can't really afford it right now but when business picks up a little we will try to get one". Are you kidding me, business will get worse not better and the business completely will be at risk. I asked him if he was interested in selling the place and made him a cash offer that he took.
The point of my story is, there are times you have to make the investment or lose everything. By the way, I owned that pool room for about a year. built up the business doing things the owner would just not do and sold it for a $40,000 profit that I parlayed into a nice lounge I made a small fortune with.
Florida is a business, nothing else. The same principles apply be it a city, county state or even a country. It is true a dollar saved can be a dollar earned. But a dollar wisely spent may be $2.00 earned or $10 or $100 or $1000. Florida is a unique state with so much going for it that does not have to settle for mediocrity. There is not a state in the country like Florida.

[coastal chic]

This is an interesting paper about the quality of education in Florida.

http://www.fcfep.org/images/20100122...her%20Look.pdf

[JohnVosilla]

Florida needs something more feasible and affordable such as streetcars as a part of the transportation hub within our conjested major metropolitan areas where it is really needed. Some of the best systems in North America are in Toronto, Boston, San Francisco and Portland, boasting the first new system in half a century. The last thing we can afford is very expensive high speed rail with minimal ridership between Orlando and Miami or Tampa which is probably going to be much less feasible than the very expensive Tri-rail and Metro Rail in SoFla the past three decades.


Streetcars in North America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Need many more like this new 2.7 mile route inTampa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TECO_Line_Streetcar_System

[chopchop0]

Originally Posted by dlhanson

More money does nothing for government education --- if the children aren't learning it is their fault and their parent's fault.

The government school can't do what the parent won't do at home (I am not saying that all have to homeschool but a patient and loving mother can prepare her child for first grade and then keep them motivated throughout school far better than anyone else).

Completely agree. It's amazing how pervasive the mantra is that more education spending = better outcomes.

Originally Posted by mango23

I actually just heard that figure on the radio today when it was being discussed. Even if it is not completely correct, it is sad that Florida's idea of success is mediocrity.

Florida is a unique state with so much going for it that does not have to settle for mediocrity. There is not a state in the country like Florida.

I disagree. FL actually does the tourism/destination retirement thing quite well. The fact that FL can stay in the middle of the pack for education outcomes is pretty good considering how much we spend per-pupil. NY and NJ would be lucky to have that kind of yield from all of the taxation and spending they do in the name of "education"

FL is 35th in per pupil spending while NY is #1: Elementary and Secondary Per Pupil Spending, 2006-2007 - Just The Facts

Yet, their SAT scores are neck-and-neck: Mean 2008 SAT Scores of Graduating High School Seniors

Math and reading scores for FL are pretty at the national average: Average reading and math scores, 2007 - Just The Facts - The Public Policy Institute

FL is also at the national average for HS graduate rates and bachelor degree rates: Educational attainment of individuals aged 25 years and over, 2006 - Just The Facts - The Public Policy Institute

[beachmouse]

SAT scores are totally worthless in terms of comparing states because there are huge, huge differences in the percentages of students in each state that take the test. Example- Alabama students will outscore New Jersey students on the SAT, but if you go look at who is taking the test, 10% of Alabama students take it, (the best and the brightest who might be thinking of trying for a selective or highly selective school out of state) while 67% of New Jersey students take it (ie. dipping into the part of the student body that will go to an open enrollment college if they go at all).

[Retiredcoach]

Originally Posted by mango23

I actually just heard that figure on the radio today when it was being discussed. Even if it is not completely correct, it is sad that Florida's idea of success is mediocrity.
Everything is interconnected for future success. Florida can't expect to attract business and more families who spend their money and contribute to the local economies. The wealthy retired people I am sorry to say do not. You need working families to come to Florida and for that you need jobs and good communities and good schools.

Years ago when I was a kid worked for a pool room. I you have read many of my posts you know I have owned pool rooms as well as bars over the years. Anyway, one summer the air conditioning went out. They tried to fix it but it would not work most of the time. Amazingly some still people came in and played many without their shirts. This place had an absentee owner and I did pretty much everything. When I told him we needed to get a new air conditioner like it or not, I will never forget his answer.
He said, " I can't really afford it right now but when business picks up a little we will try to get one". Are you kidding me, business will get worse not better and the business completely will be at risk. I asked him if he was interested in selling the place and made him a cash offer that he took.
The point of my story is, there are times you have to make the investment or lose everything. By the way, I owned that pool room for about a year. built up the business doing things the owner would just not do and sold it for a $40,000 profit that I parlayed into a nice lounge I made a small fortune with.
Florida is a business, nothing else. The same principles apply be it a city, county state or even a country. It is true a dollar saved can be a dollar earned. But a dollar wisely spent may be $2.00 earned or $10 or $100 or $1000. Florida is a unique state with so much going for it that does not have to settle for mediocrity. There is not a state in the country like Florida.

I can appreciate your analogy, along with with your great investment experience. I guess what so many fail to realize is that there is a world of difference between merely spending money for business and investing money into the business. Unfortunately for Florida, the politicians have sought the tourist dollar, the infusion of federal tax dollars, and indiscriminate spending as a means to keep the populace temporarily satisfied, at the expense of investing for the state's long term stability. Florida may have survived the "Great Recession", but it is so dependent upon the fiscal strengths of areas outside of its immediate borders, that its full recovery may forever be delayed. The double-digit unemployment and the limited ability to earn a livable wage (in the state's best of times) will forever prevent this state of amazing potential from ever being sustained.

[chopchop0]

Originally Posted by beachmouse

SAT scores are totally worthless in terms of comparing states because there are huge, huge differences in the percentages of students in each state that take the test. Example- Alabama students will outscore New Jersey students on the SAT, but if you go look at who is taking the test, 10% of Alabama students take it, (the best and the brightest who might be thinking of trying for a selective or highly selective school out of state) while 67% of New Jersey students take it (ie. dipping into the part of the student body that will go to an open enrollment college if they go at all).

What about reading and math scores or graduation rates? This argument can go back and forth all night. The fact remains that FL spends far less than either NY or NJ, yet manages to have outcomes that are close to the US average, not "47th" out of "50", like another poster was referring to.

There seems to be a lot of "bash the education system of FL" kool-aid on these forums going around without people providing the proper evidence that it is in fact the case.

FL may not be at the top, but it sure doesn't look like it's at the bottom like many people here like to believe.

[Bideshi]

Since money spent on education isn't working, then yes. Public schools are a failure.