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Old 08-15-2012, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
4,678 posts, read 8,496,861 times
Reputation: 1960

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Raven View Post
No, they're not paying property taxes. Those of us who earn money and pay taxes are covering the costs of the taxes on that property.

And the government doens't pay for anything. The government doesn't generate value. Taxpayers pay for all the "generosity" of government. The government only serves as a conduit between the producers they take money from and the recipient of "the check" the government writes. If the productive sector of the US citizenry stopped paying their taxes the govenment wouldn't have two dimes to rub together.
Only roughly 50% of the population pays taxes and last time I looked, Florida gets back more federal tax dollars then it sends. Explain how your tax dollars pays for people in Florida on welfare when only 50% of the state pays taxes in the first place, and the state gets back more than they give ?

Also, section 8 vouchers don't just cover projects housing. There are hundreds of thousands of people that rent houses and apartments with their vouchers and not all of them are 100% covered, and those places are also having property taxes paid.

I suppose, by your definition, that since Florida gets more taxes from the government than they send, that Florida is a welfare state since other states have to pay taxes to make up the difference ?
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:51 AM
 
99 posts, read 169,571 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXRyan23 View Post
Only roughly 50% of the population pays taxes and last time I looked, Florida gets back more federal tax dollars then it sends. Explain how your tax dollars pays for people in Florida on welfare when only 50% of the state pays taxes in the first place, and the state gets back more than they give ?
If my tax money is used to pay for federal welfare payments it doens't matter what percentage receives and what percentage pays. The fact is that there are millions of Florida residents who pay nothing in taxes and receive massive wealth transfers out of the pockets of producers (me, and others). That money is taken from the producers to the Federal and State governments, and those governments portion that money out (after paying bureaucratic expenses) the the welfare consumers.

If I was the only person in the state of Florida who wasn't on the dole, and my money was taken by the federal government and paid to Florida welfare consumers, I'm still paying for welfare, regardless of the percentage of people robbed versus the percentage of people who consume the fruits of my/our labor.

As for this statement you make that the State of Florida receives more money back from the federal government than what the state pays in, I'd like to see your source.
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:56 AM
 
99 posts, read 169,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXRyan23 View Post
Also, section 8 vouchers don't just cover projects housing. There are hundreds of thousands of people that rent houses and apartments with their vouchers and not all of them are 100% covered, and those places are also having property taxes paid.
That doesn't change the fact that Florida taxpayers cover the burden of property taxes for those properties taken off the tax roles so free and/or reduced priced housing can be provided to the welfare consumers.

There is a fixed amount of money needed to run government. When property which could be taxed is taken off the tax roles to provide welfare housing (full or partial payment) the costs of government which could have been partially paid for by those properties is shifted to the property owners who actually do pay taxes.
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:57 AM
 
10,575 posts, read 10,809,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXRyan23 View Post
Only roughly 50% of the population pays taxes and last time I looked, Florida gets back more federal tax dollars then it sends.
Incorrect.

TX and FL both sent in more than they received, at least based off data from a few years ago. If you have anything more recent than that (I can't find anything newer) then please feel free to post it.

Federal Spending Received Per Dollar of Taxes Paid by State, 2005 | Tax Foundation

http://www.mtc.ca.gov/maps_and_data/...lue_vs_Red.pdf

As this article points out, it's a stupid argument to try and say that states should get back what they put in, as it is structurally impossible to do so based on the nature of our tax code as well as the distribution of the population
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Houston, TX
4,678 posts, read 8,496,861 times
Reputation: 1960
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Raven View Post
That doesn't change the fact that Florida taxpayers cover the burden of property taxes for those properties taken off the tax roles so free and/or reduced priced housing can be provided to the welfare consumers.
According to a little research, there is project housing located on 137th Ave in Tampa, The property was appraised at $55k and their property tax is $1,130. It's easy to locate through the property appraisal websites.

Also, less than Half of Floridians pay taxes, what's the point of this argument ?
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Houston, TX
4,678 posts, read 8,496,861 times
Reputation: 1960
Quote:
Originally Posted by chopchop0 View Post
Incorrect.

TX and FL both sent in more than they received, at least based off data from a few years ago. If you have anything more recent than that (I can't find anything newer) then please feel free to post it.

Federal Spending Received Per Dollar of Taxes Paid by State, 2005 | Tax Foundation

http://www.mtc.ca.gov/maps_and_data/...lue_vs_Red.pdf

As this article points out, it's a stupid argument to try and say that states should get back what they put in, as it is structurally impossible to do so based on the nature of our tax code as well as the distribution of the population
Most Red States Take More Money From Washington Than They Put In | Mother Jones

Florida gets more, granted, they're not in the top 10, but states like California, Texas, and Minnesota get much less.
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Old 08-15-2012, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Ocala, FL
407 posts, read 472,064 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Raven View Post
We were discussing private property and the taxation of that property. Yes, churches don't pay property taxes. But there are lots of non-profits that own property, generate income, and don't pay property taxzes. I don't see the point of singling out Churches and ignoring the rest. If you're consistent you're saying that the ACLU, the NAACP, the Boy Scouts of America, Autism Speaks, and American Cancer Society...all of which own property and generate income...should be paying property taxes.

If you want to venture into non-profits and other organizations that hold property without paying property taxes you also have to include government-owned property. Government is also a "money-making" venture.



We're getting off topic here. Are you being ridiculous for the sake of being rediciculous? Or do you really favor forcing all non-profits to pay taxes?
I think all "nonprofits" should pay property taxes on any property not occupied by their building and a reasonably sized parking lot. They're all businesses. The president of Goodwill makes over half a million dollars a year. That's not a nonprofit.

But the object of this original idea was getting rid of the property tax altogether anyway. Since the Goodwill collects sales tax on their sales of items, even used stuff, they'll be contributing to the funding for the state.

Now, how about the restaurant tax that the "nonprofits" aren't collecting on their fish frys and barbecue sales?
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Old 08-15-2012, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
2,975 posts, read 4,068,691 times
Reputation: 1208
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Raven View Post
Of course, you do know that the elderly sometimes sell off their homes and move into assisted-living facilities, nursing homes, apartments, and many other options that don't work will with that little "forumula" of yours. In fact, the people who "cash out" of their last home most often are, obviously, seniors.
If the vast majority of your net worth when you retire is in your home, you're heavily dependent on social security and medicare. Your home is not the same as a bank account. If you can't comfortably pay your living expenses in your current home, you seriously need to consider downsizing--hence my "formula." Staying in the expensive home which you can barely afford is self destructive, and this is exactly what Save Our Homes encourages. Also, you probably can't afford a nursing home for long term care anyway (around $100 k/year), even if you sold at the peak of the housing market. If you had some form of long term care insurance, again, the current value of your home is pretty irrelevant.
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Naperville, IL
43 posts, read 83,655 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaHappy View Post
And, oh, there are police officers stationed there every Sunday to direct traffic out of that facility. Who pays for that?
?
I have a police officer friend who provides such services for a church or two. The church pays. The officers do it because it's fairly easy money for not much work.


Much of this thread amounts to what is a good structure for collecting funds to pay for government services (police, fire, schools, roads, courts, etc.)

The 'best' systems for tax revenue collection have a broad base and low rates. As pointed out earlier in this thread, non-profits receive exemptions from property taxes (be it 'right' or 'wrong', it currently exists and is not likely to change any time soon). As such, the tax base gets narrowed and rates for non-exempt property must be higher to compensate. In my view, this means that this form of tax is flawed.


In the few states where I pay attention to details, the state is responsible for providing & funding education. The use of 'local' property taxes to fund 'local' schools is not consistent with this responsibility. Thus, replacing the school tax portion of the real estate tax bill with some form of state collected tax better meets state constitutional requirements. Of the choices available at the state level, I favor the sales/excise tax over the income tax or a 'state' property tax since both of the latter two have somewhat 'narrow' bases to which their rate gets applied.
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