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Old 06-15-2014, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,617 posts, read 21,397,134 times
Reputation: 6794

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarfishKey View Post
..I should know, I bought a pre-Andrew stilt in the Keys - and a wood frame one at that! But, mine happened to be built to much better standards than it needed to be at the time, so has never had significant damage from either storms or termite infestation (although there is always a first for everything!). I couldn't afford a concrete new construction, like some of my neighbors have (these are in demand not because they're safer, but because people like new things). But at least my house has a minimal below-flood footprint, the house has virtually no overhang at all and is fairly aerodynamic for a box on legs, it has a new roof, and it's in a neighborhood that has a lot of natural wind, wave, and flood protection despite having waterfront. This house has thus far withstood gusts of some 130mph, and floods of a few feet. It's on a large lot with a metal fence so hopefully it doesn't have as much chance to harm other properties if it started to fall apart. So I just hope for the best. But I definitely wish there had been more safe construction to choose from - this was one of the most safely constructed houses I found on the market in my price range, most were just old trailers with non-conforming and non-permitted downstairs going for big money...
Were you there during the 130 mph gusts? Whether or not - what storm are you talking about? And floods of a few feet? GMAFB. Even when Hurricane Floyd passed offshore here in NE Florida - we had water in our back yard 6 feet above mean high tide level.

I read your message. And you're trying to praise your old (what I think is) below current code place - while panning similar old below current code places. Sounds like you're just trying to justify the place you bought compared to those you didn't buy.

I think the key to your message is the phrase "in your price range". The less one can afford to spend in coastal Florida - the lousier the place will usually be in terms of current code compliance.

FWIW - what do you plan to do if your place blows down/is washed away - in whole or in part? Do you have repair to current code coverage (an optional coverage)? Note that even if you do - the most you can buy in general is 25% of overall structure coverage. Robyn
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Old 06-15-2014, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,617 posts, read 21,397,134 times
Reputation: 6794
P.S. Just because a house somewhere in Florida survived Hurricane Andrew doesn't mean squat. I have to this day saved the Hurricane Andrew impact map from the Miami Herald a day or two after the storm. In the Florida Keys - only Key Largo was affected - minimally. Like maybe as much as North Miami Beach. The Lower Keys weren't affected at all. Hurricane Andrew - like most really intense storms - was somewhat like a figure skater in a spin. Small and tight and super fast (both in terms of speed going around and forward).
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Old 06-15-2014, 08:35 PM
 
1,448 posts, read 2,878,755 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaba View Post
I was wrong about that; its apparently a county by county by town by town thing, some still permit them, others don't. I am not entirely sure if its hurricane related, although the basis for my initially off-base information was that it was and indeed, some places in Florida do say no to them, although they don't specify why.
If anyone knows anything further about this, I would really like to hear about it. My yard is half pea rock and half grass currently, and I was thinking to fill in the majority of it with sand like many neighbors have done on their waterfront portions. It had never occurred to me that the ground could be picked up much in a bad storm, or that the pea rock could become missiles. I would really like to know more about this, or whatever the other reason for the code might be in other counties even if it's just something aesthetic or whatever. If there is a reason for concern I'd like to know - perhaps others here who have lived through bad hurricanes could comment on what happened to the gravel? I have lived through a hurricane before, but it was not in Florida and was on grass and concrete, so no experience with gravel missiles to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaba View Post
Sardine Can trailers are a thing of the past. Some (probably most, by now) counties won't even let them be moved to a new place. They're grandfathered on the lot they exist on but if you buy a lot across town, you can't get permitted since they're a non-compliant structure. They don't even make jankey trailers anymore, however most all newer manufactured homes are FBC compliant and have really stood up during various high wind events. You figure the last salvo of really cheap trailers are starting to enter the 30 year point, which is 5 years into terminal decline. Give it another 15-20 years, seeing a single wide trailer will be like seeing an original Old Florida Cracker House (that is to say, very, very rare).
I so wish this were true in Monroe County! But it is so not! lol
Trailers are everywhere, on stilts selling for 500k, on ground level in flood zones, with wheels and without in trailer parks - ancient, and less ancient. The stationary ones are non-compliant for sure, but aside from mounting FEMA fees and high insurance for those who still carry a mortgage, they are still very prevalent, and can be seen in nearly every neighborhood. Certainly, they are becoming more and more decrepit, and little by little are being demolished for new construction. However, unless a major policy change happens or a huge hurricane hits somewhere in the US to make people concerned, it doesn't seem likely they will be rare until a good 30 or 40 years from now... people just keep buying and selling them as if they are precious because of the waterfront they're on, or because they're a cheap way to live in the Keys if they're on dry lots. Even funnier, your note that janky ones aren't made anymore is not even relevant here, because all you have to do is go on craigslist to see hordes of the old ones (as well as old live-in vans and old live-in boats) being bought and sold all the time. There is no need for the new ones to ever even hit these islands, because the janky ones are in demand.
As long as people are broke and have a dream, they will keep finding ways to live in a cardboard box on the water. And I'd say good luck to them, except I am worried for their safety. It would seem the only way this kind of living is going to stop in the Keys is for a major hurricane to completely wipe them out - which is essentially what finally happened to end the houseboat culture that was once a major way of life here too. I don't have a problem with it for economic elitist reasons, but simply for safety ones - if we do get another big storm down here while they are so very prevalent, it is going to be one serious mess here. And all my stuff, as well as everybody else's, is going to be totally wrecked by the debris.
The new manufactured homes that are up to wind code are not very popular, because they cost too much compared to just buying a 6k piece of junk and wheeling it onto a lot, and putting concrete blocks under it to keep it steady. They are also generally not on the prime pieces of land on the good water stretches - hence people being willing to pay 600k for the old stationary ones simply for the view.

For instance, when I was searching Keys real estate I looked at one home that was a very small 1950s trailer jacked up onto stilts on a large lot in an in-demand neighborhood. The waterfront was admittedly long, and amazing. But the house was a total wreck, dark, tiny, not redone since the 60s, and since all the walls and cabinets were wood probably also had a lot of termite damage. When I saw it I was asked point blank if I was willing to pay the 475k asking price in full, as the owners were not willing to negotiate on price. The realtor was rather rude, and I was taken aback by such a question, so I said "No, I assumed they would be flexible, there is so much work to be done and it is very old, and one of the smallest houses on the market..." and was promptly shown the door. The house was on the market through the recession, but sure enough, when the economy started to recover I saw that in fact it had been sold - probably to a cash buyer from up North who didn't know any better and just wanted the amazing view - for the full price. I drove by it recently and it was not demolished for the land, the new owner is living in it as is.

I am in a sort of upscale neighborhood now, but a neighbor down the street was a foreclosed property (like many here) - this one a trailer from the early 60s. Two stories ground level, totally illegal and alos not permitted, and since it was vacant for some 6 years, really decrepit and unsafe. It was bought recently and neighbors speculated that it would be torn down for new construction. But no, the new owner decided simply to revamp the landscaping and fix up the interior, and leave the structure as is. Wow. Again, I assume cash buyer because they can self-insure and don't have to worry about inspections or flood insurance problems from banks. Although the permit fines will still be hefty.

There is a ton of that down here. In wealthy neighborhoods, in moderate neighborhoods, and in trailer parks where everybody has just moved down with no job and a dream. Trailers are the norm here, not by any means the exception. And in the Keys, people don't care how dilapidated a structure is, or how illegal, they will continue to live in it as long as it provides even a semblance of shade (and continue to illegally rent it out to poor saps who don't know better for a very healthy profit in addition). No joke. It is crazy down here, and unfortunately a disaster waiting to happen if something big hit. Add to that that a lot of people don't bother to evacuate, and you are looking at a serious mess. Plenty of people are willing to just live in their cars on the side of the road, thus the police have to continually move them along - so a stationary trailer on an actual lot is a big step up. And there are possibly thousands to choose from - especially if you have some cash.
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Old 06-15-2014, 10:11 PM
 
Location: SW Florida
14,846 posts, read 11,978,561 times
Reputation: 24630
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaba View Post
I was wrong about that; its apparently a county by county by town by town thing, some still permit them, others don't. I am not entirely sure if its hurricane related, although the basis for my initially off-base information was that it was and indeed, some places in Florida do say no to them, although they don't specify why.



Sardine Can trailers are a thing of the past. Some (probably most, by now) counties won't even let them be moved to a new place. They're grandfathered on the lot they exist on but if you buy a lot across town, you can't get permitted since they're a non-compliant structure. They don't even make jankey trailers anymore, however most all newer manufactured homes are FBC compliant and have really stood up during various high wind events. You figure the last salvo of really cheap trailers are starting to enter the 30 year point, which is 5 years into terminal decline. Give it another 15-20 years, seeing a single wide trailer will be like seeing an original Old Florida Cracker House (that is to say, very, very rare).

To be honest, most of the strapping requirements aren't that bad. The Andre engineering can be a bit overboard but most building departments are pretty cool working with people who need help (note I said 'most', not 'all'. A few are legendarily awful).
We still see a number of what look like older trailers, some single-wide, in trailer parks in the Charlotte County area, (and points north on the Gulf coast, I'd imagine,) which surprises me after they had been not allowed, I think in Miami-Dade County after Hurricane Andrew. There are many manufactured homes mostly in developments all up and down the Gulf coast, and most of those look to have been put in after Hurricane Charley. I would hope that these manufactured homes are compliant with current building codes for windstorms, but I wouldn't give a plugged nickel for some of those trailers, not from the condition some of those look to be in. Perhaps many, of not most of both those manufactured homes and trailers are vacant during hurricane season, as they're owned by snowbirds who only live in them in from November-December till May, but I still don't understand why all those old trailers are still permitted to stand and be occupied.
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Old 06-16-2014, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,617 posts, read 21,397,134 times
Reputation: 6794
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarfishKey View Post
...There is a ton of that down here. In wealthy neighborhoods, in moderate neighborhoods, and in trailer parks where everybody has just moved down with no job and a dream. Trailers are the norm here, not by any means the exception. And in the Keys, people don't care how dilapidated a structure is, or how illegal, they will continue to live in it as long as it provides even a semblance of shade (and continue to illegally rent it out to poor saps who don't know better for a very healthy profit in addition). No joke. It is crazy down here, and unfortunately a disaster waiting to happen if something big hit. Add to that that a lot of people don't bother to evacuate, and you are looking at a serious mess. Plenty of people are willing to just live in their cars on the side of the road, thus the police have to continually move them along - so a stationary trailer on an actual lot is a big step up. And there are possibly thousands to choose from - especially if you have some cash.
Nothing new about any of this. The Keys mentality has always been a little out of kilter compared to the mentality of us more "normal folk" who live on the mainland. And although people in the Keys like to exude an air of "rugged individualism" - I suspect that resolve would melt in the face of impending disaster (IIRC - a major hurricane hasn't hit the Keys since I moved here in the early 70's). I think you're correct that the only thing that will change the landscape physically is a major storm that washes every garbage dwelling into the sea.

FWIW - for many decades - the major occupation in the Keys was drug smuggling:

Florida Keys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't exactly attract classy residents.

Anyway - if you want the "flavor" of the Keys - read this book by Carl Hiassen (well known excellent writer in these parts):

Carl Hiaasen's Official Web Site

Robyn

P.S. If I were in your shoes - I'd worry more about my own safety than the safety of others. Evacuate early and often when storms are brewing out there (the evacuation route from the Keys itself is a recipe for potential disaster - especially if everyone decides to hit the road late).
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Old 06-17-2014, 02:29 AM
 
741 posts, read 909,428 times
Reputation: 1356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelassie View Post
Perhaps many, of not most of both those manufactured homes and trailers are vacant during hurricane season, as they're owned by snowbirds who only live in them in from November-December till May, but I still don't understand why all those old trailers are still permitted to stand and be occupied.
I don't think people realize how crappy old single wide trailers are generally speaking. They are just totally, 100% unsuitable for a wind zone. They're made out of thin sheet metal and what is essentially cardboard. If a single wide trailer is all you have then its worth the Taj Mahal but the reason you always see trailer parks on the news after a tornado is because a F1 that might break windows or peel shingles off a well built house turns trailer parks into zones of near-comical total destruction so thats where the news goes.

I've been in them where a large man standing in the living with his legs wide apart could 'rock' the whole damn thing to the point the walls swayed back and forth and you heard structural creeking.
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Old 06-17-2014, 02:39 AM
 
741 posts, read 909,428 times
Reputation: 1356
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarfishKey View Post
If anyone knows anything further about this, I would really like to hear about it. My yard is half pea rock and half grass currently, and I was thinking to fill in the majority of it with sand like many neighbors have done on their waterfront portions. It had never occurred to me that the ground could be picked up much in a bad storm, or that the pea rock could become missiles. I would really like to know more about this, or whatever the other reason for the code might be in other counties even if it's just something aesthetic or whatever. If there is a reason for concern I'd like to know - perhaps others here who have lived through bad hurricanes could comment on what happened to the gravel? I have lived through a hurricane before, but it was not in Florida and was on grass and concrete, so no experience with gravel missiles to know.
In major events, everything becomes a missile.

https://www.disastersafety.org/hurri...-surroundings/

Here's an insurer talking about it

Hurricane Awareness

And anecdotally, I've seen an aluminum sided house look like it got shot up by kids with BB guns after a hurricane and what was presumably its gravel driveway.
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Old 06-17-2014, 09:21 AM
 
1,448 posts, read 2,878,755 times
Reputation: 2402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaba View Post
In major events, everything becomes a missile.

https://www.disastersafety.org/hurri...-surroundings/

Here's an insurer talking about it

Hurricane Awareness

And anecdotally, I've seen an aluminum sided house look like it got shot up by kids with BB guns after a hurricane and what was presumably its gravel driveway.

Hmm... something to consider. Paved driveways are generally illegal in the Keys, because they prevent drainage and increase flooding. Even laying a brick or cobblestone-type driveway is difficult to get a permit for. People don't use grass because of the high maintenance and the lack of sufficient water half the year to sustain it. Thus, the pea rock - from coral, which is in abundance. I don't think a lot of people are going to want to cover their entire yards and driveways in soft wood chips, as these links are suggesting. Perhaps sand would be a better idea, in that it still allows for full drainage, and would be less damaging than coral pebbles. And, while a sandstorm is not exactly pleasant either, perhaps heavy rains would keep it down out of the air more than rocks. Whatever I do though, the reality right now is that nearly the entire chain of Keys islands is covered in pea rock - even if my yard had something softer, every single neighbor's entire property is covered in it, and several neighbors just had new truckloads dumped to fill out holes after buying foreclosures. So I'm probably going to get pelted either way. Early evacuation is key (or a helmet, shatter-proof goggles, and a type I life jacket if the roads are too jammed and you get stuck!).

I might also consider scraping all the gravel out and growing drought-resistant ground cover (there are some types that are very flat and even have flowers). That would prevent muddiness and erosion throughout the rainy season but also not hurt anything if a storm ripped some of it out. But in this area, it could potentially lower my house value a little because people are not used to seeing green yards and might think it looks weedy instead of beachy like they prefer.
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Old 06-17-2014, 12:06 PM
 
Location: SW Florida
14,846 posts, read 11,978,561 times
Reputation: 24630
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaba View Post
I don't think people realize how crappy old single wide trailers are generally speaking. They are just totally, 100% unsuitable for a wind zone. They're made out of thin sheet metal and what is essentially cardboard. If a single wide trailer is all you have then its worth the Taj Mahal but the reason you always see trailer parks on the news after a tornado is because a F1 that might break windows or peel shingles off a well built house turns trailer parks into zones of near-comical total destruction so thats where the news goes.

I've been in them where a large man standing in the living with his legs wide apart could 'rock' the whole damn thing to the point the walls swayed back and forth and you heard structural creeking.
I'd guess that those trailers are still around because that's all the folks who live in them can afford, they want their own place and don't want to rent- say an apartment or something. I always hope, when I see occupied trailers, is that the occupants have a clubhouse or another more windstorm resistant building where around they can ride out a hurricane, because these places are like tin cans in a windstorm.

My mother lived in a single-wide trailer in Miami, in a trailer park just south of Country Walk in Miami ( SW 152 St. and SW 137th Avenue). It was a pretty place, mostly retirees I guess, and she was real proud of how she'd fixed her home- she wanted "her own place" after her divorce from her husband, and said that's all she could afford. Then came Hurricane Andrew. She stayed with us in our home with the belongings she could bring with her, as we figured there wouldn't be much left of her trailer after the storm. We were right, when we were able to get over there after the storm, we first saw the empty pad where the trailer had been, along with the concrete steps. What was left of the trailer was crushed onto another trailer, and the two crushed trailers were maybe 4 feet high. We recognized her trailer from some of her belongings that has been scattered in the mess.....

That trailer park, along with most others I know of, disappeared after Andrew, I don't think the county allows them anymore.
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Old 06-17-2014, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,617 posts, read 21,397,134 times
Reputation: 6794
Knock wood your mother didn't elect to ride out the storm. Robyn
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