[INeedAChange]

Your argument is a slippery slope. There was a recent case in Texas where people breaking into his neighor's house. He called 911 but then against the 911 operator's advice this yokel went and shot 2 people dead.

Originally Posted by ucfjtm

No reason? There is plenty of reason for a solid citizen owning a gun for self defense. Defending your home qualifies for self defense. Read up on Florida's defense laws, especially the Castle Doctrine. There are three main points to the Castle Doctrine, in bold as to how it applies to this case:

One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others. [This is an American right repeatedly recognized in Supreme Court gun cases.]

Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force.

It also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them.

In short, it gives rights back to law-abiding people and forces judges and prosecutors who are prone to coddling criminals to instead focus on protecting victims.

The Florida statute allows the use of deadly force when a person reasonably believes it necessary to prevent the commission of a "forcible felony." Under the statute, forcible felonies include "treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual." - Florida Statutes Title XLVI Chapter 776


Note that this law doesn't state the home owner must feel threatened for their life to use deadly force. It states that breaking into a home is a threat and can legally be treated with self defense.

Florida was the first state in 2005 to establish the Castle Doctrine, but 16 other states have come out with their own versions of these laws, and five more are in the process of establishing their own versions as well. Law abiding citizens are tired of having these crimes committed with growing frequency against them, and whether you like it or not, they're allowed to be shot and killed for a home invasion in Florida. Finally, states are recognizing that criminals are smarter than they've been credit for - they knew they could prosecute if injured while committing a crime. Now they know their victims have the power to legally use deadly force to kill for home invasions. If they're still willing to steal with these laws, they accept the permanent consequences of their actions and not just a scolding with a slap on the wrist. The crime has got to stop, and this is the first solid step towards that goal in years. We can't all have police escorts and guards at our homes - that's what Officers Heckler & Koch are for.

I know we'll get a scolding from the 'guns are bad, m'kay?' crowd, but media sure does like to not report events where guns are used to prevent a crime. That crowd likes to believe this world can be a fairy tale where everyone respects each other, but after 5,000+ years of established civilizations, society isn't changing anytime soon. There are thousands of people out there that should not own a gun - I agree with that. But we can't take the most effective means of defense away from people who can properly own them. Criminals are going to use guns even if they're banned - just look at England's attempt at gun control. Criminals are already breaking laws, so why stop at following gun control laws?
A post by (usually) pro-gun control BBC:
BBC News | UK | Handgun crime 'up' despite ban
Another post, this one from 2007, where Tony Blair wants to increase penalties for carrying guns due to the lack of effectiveness current laws have with gun use in committing crimes:
BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Blair wants gun crime age reduced

mac - I'm sorry you've had to go through this. Eventually they'll get what's coming to them. I've had cars broken into and stolen, so I understand the frustration - I just cannot imagine how much more extreme it must be when it's your home.

[jjncbound]

I am so sorry to hear of your misfortune. Although I am glad that you and your wife are safe. I am sorry to say that this is not just happening in Florida but all over the USA. It seems you feel completely safe anywhere.

[macguy]

Originally Posted by jjncbound

I am so sorry to hear of your misfortune. Although I am glad that you and your wife are safe. I am sorry to say that this is not just happening in Florida but all over the USA. It seems you feel completely safe anywhere.

That may be true but I read papers in some small towns I have been looking at and the head line recently was a truck being stolen and the second biggest story was someone turning a 100. I am afraid in Fort Lauderdale the paper "Every Single Day" is full of rapes, murders, assaults, armed robberies and so on and it goes on day after day after day. Fort Lauderdale is by no means Maybeery.

The truth is most people drive around in locked cars with the air on, music playing and unless it happens to them personally live in a naive state of denial as to just how dangerous a place they actually live. Talk to a cop or two and you find out what really goes on. The papers can't even cover it all.

[macguy]

Update.

My wife just said she saw police cars at a house on the next street. I took a walk over there and sure enough they came home from work to find the house robbed. This house is no more then 400 feet from my house.

[Magnulus]

This is too bad your house got broken in.

My parents and my brother and I live in a nice neighborhood in Oviedo, Florida... and my brother got his tires slashed a couple months ago. 200 dollars worth of tire damage to his 1990 Volvo. And it happened to almost every house in the neighborhood, too- any car that was parked near the street got it. We had our first murder last year too, in about 75 years.

Crime is going up all over Florida, and it's probably only going to get worse as the economy here continues to worsen. Around Orlando area they've been having alot of problems with copper thieves attacking infrastructure and businesses.

[kshe95girl]

Originally Posted by macguy

Update.

My wife just said she saw police cars at a house on the next street. I took a walk over there and sure enough they came home from work to find the house robbed. This house is no more then 400 feet from my house.

Good lord, where are you? If you stated in another post, sorry, I didnt scroll back through to look again.

[ucfjtm]

Originally Posted by INeedAChange

Your argument is a slippery slope. There was a recent case in Texas where people breaking into his neighor's house. He called 911 but then against the 911 operator's advice this yokel went and shot 2 people dead.

That's the story of Joe Horn, and a 911 operator isn't necessarily a lawyer:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/us...in&oref=slogin
My argument has nothing to do with Joe Horn, especially since I don't fully agree with what he did. He went outside his house to prevent a robbery to his Vietnamese neighbor, which isn't clearly defined in Texas law as a right to use deadly force with regards to someone else's property. He took a serious risk going outside his house to confront two people on someone else's property, and I think he's got guts (but not necessarily lawful) for that. I'm not going to jump as high as some others to proclaim he's a hero - even though both men he shot were illegals from Columbia, one having already been deported in 1999 for 25 year cocaine charges. I think Joe Horn stood up for what he believed in - protecting his neighborhood - but I don't agree with his decision. Should he be prosecuted? Only if detectives prove that these illegals didn't enter his property in a threatening way. I have a feeling that he will be prosecuted since the author of the Texas law said it didn't apply to a neighbor's property. If a court finds he broke the Castle Doctrine by defending a neighbor's property, he'll have to answer for his actions.

[macguy]

Originally Posted by kshe95girl

Good lord, where are you? If you stated in another post, sorry, I didnt scroll back through to look again.

A nice area in Fort Lauderdale with houses worth breaking into, not a slum.

[INeedAChange]

Thanks for your response. Personally, regardless of Texas law, I feel that Joe Horn is guilty of Criminally Negligent Homicide at the minimum. A) He had no idea who those two people were who were entering the house, they could have been people coming to do work for all he knew B) in any case, it would be better if the house was robbed and two people were still alive. C) he was advised by the 911 operator not to do what he did, and did it anyway. It is absolutely imperative that he does jail time for this, otherwise it opens the door to complete anarchy--anyone can do a Charles Bronson routine--I mean if you can shoot someone entering your neighbor's house, why not someone entering a house 2blocks away, or in another city?

I'm not sure what bearing his neighbor's ethnicity or the fact that the two victims were illegal aliens has on the case. Horn didn't know they were illegal when he killed them. On the other hand, a possible case for racial bias could be made if it can be proved that Horn shot them because they were Hispanic. I don't know whether Texas has hate crime laws.



Where does it end? Years ago a Japanese exchange student went to the wrong house by accident in Louisiana (he was going to a party) and knocked on the door. The man who opened the door shot him dead. The man was not charged.

It's always better to just to call the police.

Originally Posted by ucfjtm

That's the story of Joe Horn, and a 911 operator isn't necessarily a lawyer:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/us...in&oref=slogin
My argument has nothing to do with Joe Horn, especially since I don't fully agree with what he did. He went outside his house to prevent a robbery to his Vietnamese neighbor, which isn't clearly defined in Texas law as a right to use deadly force with regards to someone else's property. He took a serious risk going outside his house to confront two people on someone else's property, and I think he's got guts (but not necessarily lawful) for that. I'm not going to jump as high as some others to proclaim he's a hero - even though both men he shot were illegals from Columbia, one having already been deported in 1999 for 25 year cocaine charges. I think Joe Horn stood up for what he believed in - protecting his neighborhood - but I don't agree with his decision. Should he be prosecuted? Only if detectives prove that these illegals didn't enter his property in a threatening way. I have a feeling that he will be prosecuted since the author of the Texas law said it didn't apply to a neighbor's property. If a court finds he broke the Castle Doctrine by defending a neighbor's property, he'll have to answer for his actions.

[compelled to reply]

Originally Posted by macguy

I am afraid in Fort Lauderdale the paper "Every Single Day" is full of rapes, murders, assaults, armed robbery

#
Pilot of helicopter crashed on PBC beach ID'd as Pines man
Updated: 3:10 p.m.
#
Paralyzed gunshot victim remains jailed by judge
Updated: 1:23 p.m.
#
County in a quandary: Group had no right to make new hire
#
Accused burglars lead Broward deputies to suspect's home
Updated: 3:18 p.m.
#
Bond denied for ex-Springs mayor in molestation case
#
Pedestrian struck, killed on I-95 in Lauderdale
#
Former Seminole worker let gamblers play slots for free
#
Lauderhill boy accused of killing toddler had baby-sat before
#
Proposal for aquatic center wows Fort Lauderdale commissioners
#
Proposed 25-story apartment tower at Young Circle is too big, critics say
#
Community split on use of 'evolution' in state science classes
#
Davie residents oppose plan for new high school
#
Driver killed by Tri-Rail train after failing to stop at crossing
#
Alan Levine resigns as president of North Broward Hospital District
#
Nude man accused of watching children swim in Davie

Burglars, a creepy mayor, and some very bad kid. Not bad for 1.8 million. I know, your going to use the excuse of "Because it's South Florida they stuff up the stories!". Actually, they sensationalize crime like any other paper, and like any other paper run of the mill stuff wont make it, so like you said you won't even believe what they don't report, thats what police blotters are for.

The truth is most people drive around in locked cars with the air on, music playing and unless it happens to them personally live in a naive state of denial as to just how dangerous a place they actually live.

So what are you going to do, live in a state of denial somewhere else? They have burglars, armed robbers, thieves, and sex addicts everywhere. The world is a dangerous place. If you think Fort Lauderdale is the only place this stuff happens, you are just as naive and have been living here way too long.

Originally Posted by macguy

A nice area in Fort Lauderdale with houses worth breaking into, not a slum.

How long have you been living in the neighborhood? Neighborhoods tend to flux and change over time, you might be surprised what you consider "nice" might not look that nice to an outsider, even if it used to look that way. Also, it's in Fort Lauderdale proper, admittedly a high crime area, meaning you probably aren't far from a bad neighborhood. And as far as the speaking to a cop part, my friend works with BSO in Weston and Cooper City. He responds to domestic calls, burglaries, and occasionally finds some drugs, all which you will NEVER get away from in any little corner of the world. As that other poster put it, if we annexed the moon, the second person would be a burglar. Would my option change if my home was burglarized? Probably not, even if the statistics show my area has "low crime" I realize a victim is not just a statistic, they were still victimized even if my chances of it happening were high or low. Find me a town with zero (or even 5 or 10) burglaries. Even with only 150 people. Just one.

Regardless, I hope they catch the burglars, because nobody deserves that. (They aren't robbers, I don't know if you are just using that term as a general term like most do or if your trying to weasel it up, but their burglars and I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Robbery is implying somebody held a gun to you).