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I have absolutely no doubt that none of the founders would have had a problem with keeping guns out of the hands of people who were too stupid to handle them responsibly.
I agree. I also have no doubt that if someone accidentally had shot himself or someone else due to stupidity, the Founders would never have used that as a basis to conclude that guns should be banned outright, as is often the case today.
I also have no doubt that if someone accidentally had shot himself or someone else due to stupidity, the Founders would never have used that as a basis to conclude that guns should be banned outright, as is often the case today.
We know this is true because there are historical accounts of both accidental shootings and massacres (today's terror attacks) going back to that period yet the founders still assured us the right to keep and carry weapons.
Keeping a gun in the nightstand, in a properly locked safe (biosafe), is not "paranoia" any more than keeping a fire extinguisher handy or wearing a seatbelt.
But that is the responsible thing to do if you want a gun in your nightstand. The 3 year old that shot the 9 year old found the gun on top of the nightstand out in the open. As I said, I realize you can't penalize everyone for one person's stupidity, but I will say that the response of the sheriff was that it was a terrible accident. I'll bet he wouldn't say the same thing if grandpa was drunk and mowed down a few people with his car. That's my conflict. It's my right to have a gun, but if I Fup, it was just an terrible accident. I'd just wish there was a way to cull the irresponsible owners out from the responsible owners.
But that is the responsible thing to do if you want a gun in your nightstand. The 3 year old that shot the 9 year old found the gun on top of the nightstand out in the open. As I said, I realize you can't penalize everyone for one person's stupidity, but I will say that the response of the sheriff was that it was a terrible accident. I'll bet he wouldn't say the same thing if grandpa was drunk and mowed down a few people with his car. That's my conflict. It's my right to have a gun, but if I Fup, it was just an terrible accident. I'd just wish there was a way to cull the irresponsible owners out from the responsible owners.
I believe leaving a firearm out in the open where a child can take it and shoot someone is already illegal. Child endangerment among many other things. It can be illegal and still be an accident. Like a drunk driving crash is still called a car accident, and a terrible one at that. And we all agree, just like drunk drivers, that careless and reckless handling of a firearm should be illegal and it generally is.
If this thread is going to become a thread about supporting guns as "self-defense" rather than about the legislation as it pertains to the Keys (which was why it was written), let's at least consider real facts.
The fact is, a woman is statistically far less safe with a gun in the home than without a gun in the home. A "responsible" gun owner means nothing - a lot of the men who shoot their female partners have training in how to use guns, keep them locked up, and otherwise generally follow the guidelines for responsible gun ownership... up until they get angry or feel desperate.
Guns in the home are far more likely to be used accidentally, by children, in suicide, against the owner, or by a domestic partner, than they are to be used in successfully fending off an intruder.
My friend and her 2 children were all killed by her husband with a gun he bought "for protection" just a month earlier, before he then turned that gun on himself. He had no prior history of domestic violence that anyone knows of, and was a well-liked guy by all who knew him. To everyone's knowledge, they had a long and happy marriage with no major issues. But he was going through depression, and money troubles. My friend was very against him buying the gun and bringing it into the home, and told others they had a fight about it. He bought it anyway. A month later he had killed them all. I have multiple other female friends who have been terrorized by guns in the home, sometimes by partners who are military members or cops.
My problem is not that private guns are legal. My problem is how ill-informed the public is about them, and how hard men tend to fight for something that is so detrimental to women and children statistically. They're so worried about defending their families against faceless intruders, but do nothing to manage their own rage issues, depression, controlling behavior, communication problems, and machismo. Then they either turn the gun on themselves, or their wives, or threaten their kids with them. I myself was threatened by my father with the guns he kept in our home, because he did not know how to deal with anger and loss of total control.
Pretending these stories are uncommon is ridiculous. Guns in the home are a far greater threat to women than intruders are. Domestic violence is incredibly common, and these statistics only include the instances that were reported - which means when the police were called and/or a death occurred. Most incidents of domestic violence go unreported. A woman is FAR more likely to suffer domestic violence than have to fight off an intruder or stranger.
The Facts on Guns and Domestic Violence:
Guns and domestic violence are a lethal combination - injuring and killing women every day in the United States. A gun is the weapon most commonly used in domestic homicides. In fact, more than 3 times as many women are murdered by guns used by their husbands or intimate acquaintances than are killed by strangers’ guns, knives or other weapons combined.
Contrary to many public perceptions, many women who are murdered are killed not by strangers but by men they know.
• Nearly one-third of all women murdered in the United States in recent years were murdered by
a current or former intimate partner. In 2000, 1,247 women, more than three a day, were killed
by their intimate partners.
• Of females killed with a firearm, almost 2/3 were killed by their intimate partners.
• Access to firearms increases the risk of intimate partner homicide more than 5 times more than in instances where there are no weapons, according to a recent study. In addition, abusers who possess guns tend to inflict the most severe abuse on their partners.
• In 2002, 54 percent of female homicide victims were shot and killed with a gun.
• Handguns are more likely than rifles or shotguns to be used in homicides in which men kill
women. In 2002, handguns were used in 73 percent of cases where men used firearms to kill
women.
• In homicides where males use firearms to kill women, handguns are the most commonly used
weapon, over rifles and shotguns. 73% percent of all female were killed with a handgun.
• In 1998, for every 1 woman who used a handgun to kill an intimate acquaintance in self- defense, 83 women were murdered by an intimate acquaintance using a handgun.
• A study of women physically abused by current or former intimate partners found a 5-fold increased risk of the partner murdering the woman when the partner owned a gun.
• Domestic violence misdemeanor convictions and restraining orders were the second most
common reason for denials of handgun purchase applications between 1994 and 1998.
• From 1998 to 2001, more than 2,800 people with misdemeanor domestic violence convictions were able to purchase guns without being identified by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.
Alcohol or drug use significantly increases these risks.
Sources:
i
When Men Murder Women: An Analysis of 2002 Homicide Data: Females Murdered by Males in Single Victim/Single Offender Incidents.2004. Violence Policy Center. Washington, DC. Retrieved January 9, 2004 http://www.vpc.org/studies/wmmw2004....ics/WMMW03.pdf.
ii
Rennison, Callie Marie and Sarah Welchans. 2003.Intimate Partner Violence 1993-2001. U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics. Washington, DC. Retrieved January 9, 2004. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/ipv01.htm.
iii
When Men Murder Women: An Analysis of 2002 Homicide Data: Females Murdered by Males in Single Victim/Single Offender Incidents. 2004. Violence Policy Center. Washington, DC. Retrieved January 9, 2004. http://www.vpc.org/studies/wmmw2004.pdf
iv
J. C. Campbell, D; Webster, J; Koziol-McLain, C. R; et al. 2003. Risk Factors For Femicide in Abusive Relationships: Results From A Multi-Site Case Control Study. American Journal of Public Health. 93(7).
v
When Men Murder Women: An Analysis of 2001 Homicide Data: Females Murdered by Males in Single Victim/Single Offender Incidents. 2003. Violence Policy Center. Washington, DC. Retrieved January 9, 2004. http://www.vpc.org/graphics/WMMW03.pdf.
vi
When Men Murder Women: An Analysis of 2002 Homicide Data: Females Murdered by Males in Single Victim/Single Offender Incidents. 2004. Violence Policy Center. Washington, DC. Retrieved January 9, 2004. http://www.vpc.org/studies/wmmw2004.pdf
vii
A Deadly Myth: Women, Handguns, and Self-Defense.2001. Violence Policy Center. Washington, DC. Retrieved January 9, 2004. VPC - A Deadly Myth: Women, Handguns, and Self-Defense.
Viii
Firearms and Intimate Partner Violence.2003. Johns Hopkins University Center for Gun Policy and Research. Retrieved January 9, 2004. http://www.jhsph.edu/gunpolicy/IPV_firearms.pdf.
ix
Manson, D.A., Gillard, D.K., Lauver, G. 1999.A National Estimate: Presale Handgun Checks, the Brady Interim Period, 1994-98. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice. Washington, DC. Retrieved January9,2004.http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/phc98.pdf.
x
Opportunities to Close Loopholes in the National
Instant Criminal Background Check System.2002.Report to the Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives. General Accounting Office. Washington, DC.”
--------- For those in need of help: The National Domestic Violence Hotline, 24/7, safe, anonymous hotline provides crisis intervention, information, safety planning, and referrals to community agencies.: 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) | 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)
The Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men and Women offers intervention and support to victims of anger and domestic violence. http://www.dahmw.org/
The National Coalition Against Domestic Violence offers abundant information on anger resolution, creating a family safety plan, and identity protection for victims of anger and abuse. Home
Safehorizon offers support, anger management counseling, and resources to victims of anger and domestic violence and to those who need assistance controlling their anger. 1-800-621-HOPE (4673)
Last edited by StarfishKey; 02-10-2016 at 12:28 PM..
Not to be nitpicky, really, but gun owners never had more rights than non-gun owners. I think it is important to differentiate between hyperbole and fact in these charged subjects. I think your point is better described as you had the feeling that non-gun owners didn't have the right to keep gun owners from the exercise of their rights. And, as much as we both thought that was incredibly irresponsible and stupid, that is as it should be until the legislature fixed the problem. The real problem, in my mind, is that it took them this long to fix it.
It is not paranoid to be prepared. The opposite of being prepared is being unprepared and that condition of being is not a particularly good one. I've read that burglaries occur once every 15 seconds in the US. Even if your chances of being home at night when someone breaks in are very small, they are still real and there are countless stories of burglars and rapists, home invasions, etc. being stopped by an armed homeowner or resident. Choosing to pretend that it will never happen to you is fine but that is not being prepared, and as they say, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
Most gun owners, from what I read, are very conscientious about safety. It's the idiots out there (and they are there no matter what the subject matter) that give gun ownership a bad name. I understand why many people fear that any limitation regarding gun ownership is a slippery slope but I don't agree in this regard: I think every gun owner should be required to demonstrate a very basic proficiency and level of understanding of the best practices regarding keeping and using a gun. Everyone benefits from this and no one's rights are infringed by it. JMHO
[quote=StarfishKey;42960539]If this thread is going to become a thread about supporting guns as "self-defense" rather than about the legislation as it pertains to the Keys (which was why it was written), let's at least consider real facts.
The fact is, a woman is statistically far less safe with a gun in the home than without a gun in the home. A "responsible" gun owner means nothing - a lot of the men who shoot their female partners have training in how to use guns, keep them locked up, and otherwise generally follow the guidelines for responsible gun ownership... up until they get angry or feel desperate.
Guns in the home are far more likely to be used accidentally, by children, in suicide, against the owner, or by a domestic partner, than they are to be used in successfully fending off an intruder.
My friend and her 2 children were all killed by her husband with a gun he bought "for protection" just a month earlier, before he then turned that gun on himself. He had no prior history of domestic violence that anyone knows of, and was a well-liked guy by all who knew him. To everyone's knowledge, they had a long and happy marriage with no major issues. But he was going through depression, and money troubles. My friend was very against him buying the gun and bringing it into the home, and told others they had a fight about it. He bought it anyway. A month later he had killed them all. I have multiple other female friends who have been terrorized by guns in the home, sometimes by partners who are military members or cops.
My problem is not that private guns are legal. My problem is how ill-informed the public is about them, and how hard men tend to fight for something that is so detrimental to women and children statistically. They're so worried about defending their families against faceless intruders, but do nothing to manage their own rage issues, depression, controlling behavior, communication problems, and machismo. Then they either turn the gun on themselves, or their wives, or threaten their kids with them. I myself was threatened by my father with the guns he kept in our home, because he did not know how to deal with anger and loss of total control.
Pretending these stories are uncommon is ridiculous. Guns in the home are a far greater threat to women than intruders are. Domestic violence is incredibly common, and these statistics only include the instances that were reported - which means when the police were called and/or a death occurred. Most incidents of domestic violence go unreported. A woman is FAR more likely to suffer domestic violence than have to fight off an intruder or stranger.
I'm sorry about your friend! Ugh,,,,,so Sad!!!
However, I believe the problem lies with mental illness in these people that pick up the gun and kill innocent people. You are right that these people that commit these horrible acts did not know what to do with their anger, depression, etc. I really don't know what the solution is since you can't force someone to go get help when they feel they are losing control. But, I still believe that law abiding citizens deserve to have a fire arm for protection against the unknown.
If this thread is going to become a thread about supporting guns as "self-defense" rather than about the legislation as it pertains to the Keys (which was why it was written), let's at least consider real facts.
The fact is, a woman is statistically far less safe with a gun in the home than without a gun in the home. A "responsible" gun owner means nothing - a lot of the men who shoot their female partners have training in how to use guns, keep them locked up, and otherwise generally follow the guidelines for responsible gun ownership... up until they get angry or feel desperate.
Guns in the home are far more likely to be used accidentally, by children, in suicide, against the owner, or by a domestic partner, than they are to be used in successfully fending off an intruder.
My friend and her 2 children were all killed by her husband with a gun he bought "for protection" just a month earlier, before he then turned that gun on himself. He had no prior history of domestic violence that anyone knows of, and was a well-liked guy by all who knew him. To everyone's knowledge, they had a long and happy marriage with no major issues. But he was going through depression, and money troubles. My friend was very against him buying the gun and bringing it into the home, and told others they had a fight about it. He bought it anyway. A month later he had killed them all. I have multiple other female friends who have been terrorized by guns in the home, sometimes by partners who are military members or cops.
My problem is not that private guns are legal. My problem is how ill-informed the public is about them, and how hard men tend to fight for something that is so detrimental to women and children statistically. They're so worried about defending their families against faceless intruders, but do nothing to manage their own rage issues, depression, controlling behavior, communication problems, and machismo. Then they either turn the gun on themselves, or their wives, or threaten their kids with them. I myself was threatened by my father with the guns he kept in our home, because he did not know how to deal with anger and loss of total control.
Pretending these stories are uncommon is ridiculous. Guns in the home are a far greater threat to women than intruders are. Domestic violence is incredibly common, and these statistics only include the instances that were reported - which means when the police were called and/or a death occurred. Most incidents of domestic violence go unreported. A woman is FAR more likely to suffer domestic violence than have to fight off an intruder or stranger.
The Facts on Guns and Domestic Violence:
Guns and domestic violence are a lethal combination - injuring and killing women every day in the United States. A gun is the weapon most commonly used in domestic homicides. In fact, more than 3 times as many women are murdered by guns used by their husbands or intimate acquaintances than are killed by strangers’ guns, knives or other weapons combined.
Contrary to many public perceptions, many women who are murdered are killed not by strangers but by men they know.
• Nearly one-third of all women murdered in the United States in recent years were murdered by
a current or former intimate partner. In 2000, 1,247 women, more than three a day, were killed
by their intimate partners.
• Of females killed with a firearm, almost 2/3 were killed by their intimate partners.
• Access to firearms increases the risk of intimate partner homicide more than 5 times more than in instances where there are no weapons, according to a recent study. In addition, abusers who possess guns tend to inflict the most severe abuse on their partners.
• In 2002, 54 percent of female homicide victims were shot and killed with a gun.
• Handguns are more likely than rifles or shotguns to be used in homicides in which men kill
women. In 2002, handguns were used in 73 percent of cases where men used firearms to kill
women.
• In homicides where males use firearms to kill women, handguns are the most commonly used
weapon, over rifles and shotguns. 73% percent of all female were killed with a handgun.
• In 1998, for every 1 woman who used a handgun to kill an intimate acquaintance in self- defense, 83 women were murdered by an intimate acquaintance using a handgun.
• A study of women physically abused by current or former intimate partners found a 5-fold increased risk of the partner murdering the woman when the partner owned a gun.
• Domestic violence misdemeanor convictions and restraining orders were the second most
common reason for denials of handgun purchase applications between 1994 and 1998.
• From 1998 to 2001, more than 2,800 people with misdemeanor domestic violence convictions were able to purchase guns without being identified by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.
Alcohol or drug use significantly increases these risks.
Sources:
i
When Men Murder Women: An Analysis of 2002 Homicide Data: Females Murdered by Males in Single Victim/Single Offender Incidents.2004. Violence Policy Center. Washington, DC. Retrieved January 9, 2004 http://www.vpc.org/studies/wmmw2004....ics/WMMW03.pdf.
ii
Rennison, Callie Marie and Sarah Welchans. 2003.Intimate Partner Violence 1993-2001. U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics. Washington, DC. Retrieved January 9, 2004. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/ipv01.htm.
iii
When Men Murder Women: An Analysis of 2002 Homicide Data: Females Murdered by Males in Single Victim/Single Offender Incidents. 2004. Violence Policy Center. Washington, DC. Retrieved January 9, 2004. http://www.vpc.org/studies/wmmw2004.pdf
iv
J. C. Campbell, D; Webster, J; Koziol-McLain, C. R; et al. 2003. Risk Factors For Femicide in Abusive Relationships: Results From A Multi-Site Case Control Study. American Journal of Public Health. 93(7).
v
When Men Murder Women: An Analysis of 2001 Homicide Data: Females Murdered by Males in Single Victim/Single Offender Incidents. 2003. Violence Policy Center. Washington, DC. Retrieved January 9, 2004. http://www.vpc.org/graphics/WMMW03.pdf.
vi
When Men Murder Women: An Analysis of 2002 Homicide Data: Females Murdered by Males in Single Victim/Single Offender Incidents. 2004. Violence Policy Center. Washington, DC. Retrieved January 9, 2004. http://www.vpc.org/studies/wmmw2004.pdf
vii
A Deadly Myth: Women, Handguns, and Self-Defense.2001. Violence Policy Center. Washington, DC. Retrieved January 9, 2004. VPC - A Deadly Myth: Women, Handguns, and Self-Defense.
Viii
Firearms and Intimate Partner Violence.2003. Johns Hopkins University Center for Gun Policy and Research. Retrieved January 9, 2004. http://www.jhsph.edu/gunpolicy/IPV_firearms.pdf.
ix
Manson, D.A., Gillard, D.K., Lauver, G. 1999.A National Estimate: Presale Handgun Checks, the Brady Interim Period, 1994-98. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice. Washington, DC. Retrieved January9,2004.http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/phc98.pdf.
x
Opportunities to Close Loopholes in the National
Instant Criminal Background Check System.2002.Report to the Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives. General Accounting Office. Washington, DC.”
--------- For those in need of help: The National Domestic Violence Hotline, 24/7, safe, anonymous hotline provides crisis intervention, information, safety planning, and referrals to community agencies.: 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) | 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)
The Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men and Women offers intervention and support to victims of anger and domestic violence. http://www.dahmw.org/
The National Coalition Against Domestic Violence offers abundant information on anger resolution, creating a family safety plan, and identity protection for victims of anger and abuse. Home
Safehorizon offers support, anger management counseling, and resources to victims of anger and domestic violence and to those who need assistance controlling their anger. 1-800-621-HOPE (4673)
If you trade liberty for safety, you deserve neither. Taking a bus statistically FAR safer than cars, and is statistically safer for women and children, you know, I sure hope you don't drive.
The statistics you are providing are so loaded it's not even funny. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Because, you know, if the husband didn't have a gun, he would have been climbing the tree and rescuing kittens instead of hurting his wife.
I had a friend who crashed and died in a small airplane. Statistically, it's more dangerous than a car, which is more dangerous than a bus. So clearly we should know our stats and ban everything except the bus.
I'm sorry about your friend! Ugh,,,,,so Sad!!!
However, I believe the problem lies with mental illness in these people that pick up the gun and kill innocent people. You are right that these people that commit these horrible acts did not know what to do with their anger, depression, etc. I really don't know what the solution is since you can't force someone to go get help when they feel they are losing control. But, I still believe that law abiding citizens deserve to have a fire arm for protection against the unknown.
Of course law abiding citizens deserve to be armed to protect themselves and their families. There is not a single more fundamental right that exists, actually.
If this thread is going to become a thread about supporting guns as "self-defense" . . . . My friend and her 2 children were all killed by her husband with a gun he bought "for protection" just a month earlier, before he then turned that gun on himself. He had no prior history of domestic violence that anyone knows of, and was a well-liked guy by all who knew him. To everyone's knowledge, they had a long and happy marriage with no major issues. But he was going through depression, and money troubles. My friend was very against him buying the gun and bringing it into the home, and told others they had a fight about it. He bought it anyway. A month later he had killed them all. I have multiple other female friends who have been terrorized by guns in the home, sometimes by partners who are military members or cops. . .
My problem is not that private guns are legal. My problem is how ill-informed the public is about them, and how hard men tend to fight for something that is so detrimental to women and children statistically. They're so worried about defending their families against faceless intruders, but do nothing to manage their own rage issues, depression, controlling behavior, communication problems, and machismo. Then they either turn the gun on themselves, or their wives, or threaten their kids with them. I myself was threatened by my father with the guns he kept in our home, because he did not know how to deal with anger and loss of total control.
I am sorry to hear about your friend, and I can only imagine the feeling one gets when threatened by a family member -- truly a terrible thing.
However, with all due respect to you and your friends and family (really), I refuse to accept that I cannot make my own choices when it comes to firearms just because other people make bad ones. Yes, some people's lives are hurt by firearms, but it is also true that guns are successfully used in self defense by many people. This is evidenced by news articles which can be researched by anyone. Why must I give up my liberty and my safety to protect other people from their own choices or misfortunes?
Sorry to get off topic. I do agree that in the small spaces of the Keys, firearms use pose a particular hazard, and it is not unreasonable to regulate their use in that context.
Last edited by CapnTrips; 02-10-2016 at 02:04 PM..
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