[chopchop0]

Originally Posted by kmarc

So Scott has ordered an investigation into the shooting response.

Good. He's also supported raising the age on rifles to 21, like handguns. Guess he cares more about his senate run than the NRA, for now.

[kmarc]

Originally Posted by chopchop0

Good. He's also supported raising the age on rifles to 21, like handguns. Guess he cares more about his senate run than the NRA, for now.

Banned bump stocks, too.

[kokonutty]

Originally Posted by BeachBum87

First, it's not a logical fallacy to compare them. Please learn what a logical fallacy is. And no, I won't stop until someone presents a good argument why they're not comparable. So far you haven't, and no one has in this thread. But I'm openminded, and if someone shows me why alcohol is not comparable to firearms, I will drop that analogy.

The overall crime rate? The USA homicide rate has declined to somewhere between 3-4 per 100,000 when it used to be over 10 per 100,000 back in the 90s. Btw, it was declining even when Clinton's "assault" rifle ban was lifted by Bush in 2004.

Firearms were developed with the intent to kill; alcohol was not developed with the intent to kill.

[BeachBum87]

Originally Posted by kokonutty

Firearms were developed with the intent to kill; alcohol was not developed with the intent to kill.

And this is important how when alcohol related DUIs put your kid at a 30x greater risk of dying? Does the fact the drunk driver didn't intend to kill your kid offer any consolation?

And while guns are intended to kill - I suppose - killing can have legal purpose such as self defense or hunting.

[BeachBum87]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

I don't want to ban semi-automatic weapons either, we own some. I just want to ban guns (pistols and long guns) with detachable high capacity magazines, or at the very least require a more thorough vetting of who can own those guns, maybe using the same local law enforcement procedures employed for the issuance of a concealed carry permit which can involve interviews with friends and associates, reviews of police reports not leading to felony convictions, reports of threatening or violent behavior and in some cases a psychological screening.

I don't really care what you want to ban FYI, so you don't need to tell me. But any semi-automatic rifle or pistol can be equipped with an extended mag so you'd have to effectively ban all of them or redesign them in a way to not take in magazines at all.

[kokonutty]

Originally Posted by BeachBum87

And this is important how when alcohol related DUIs put your kid at a 30x greater risk of dying? Does the fact the drunk driver didn't intend to kill your kid offer any consolation?

You asked a question; I answered it.

Where do these current figures come from? A 30 times greater risk of dying than what? You're all over the map here. What is it you're trying to prove? That guns are not intended to hurt and kill? It won't work, Bum.

[BeachBum87]

Originally Posted by kokonutty

You asked a question; I answered it.

I asked how my analogy is not good and you didn't answer it satisfactorily. You might as well have stated that alcohol begins with a and guns begin with g, or that alcohol is a liquid and a gun is a solid.

Where do these current figures come from? A 30 times greater risk of dying than what? You're all over the map here. What is it you're trying to prove? That guns are not intended to hurt and kill? It won't work, Bum.

I posted them in this thread - go find them.

But to state it from memory, DUIs kill 11,000 a year, and people who die in mass shootings average about 375 a year.

If your worried about your kid being blown away in a mass shooting - don't, because they're 30x more likely to be run over by a drunk driver.

[kokonutty]

Originally Posted by BeachBum87

I asked how my analogy is not good and you didn't answer it satisfactorily. You might as well have stated that alcohol begins with a and guns begin with g, or that alcohol is a liquid and a gun is a solid.



I posted them in this thread - go find them.

But to state it from memory, DUIs kill 11,000 a year, and people who die in mass shootings average about 375 a year.

If your worried about your kid being blown away in a mass shooting - don't, because they're 30x more likely to be run over by a drunk driver.

Now that is a big, fat, false equivalency. Why are you comparing all DUI deaths to only mass shootings?

Guns account for over three times as many deaths annually as DUI incidents. All deaths, for both methods, not your fake, phony, cherry-picked stats. Deal with it.

The big difference is that only a very small percentage of DUI deaths were intentional; the largest proportion of the gun deaths originated with the intent to harm.

[BeachBum87]

Originally Posted by kokonutty

Now that is a big, fat, false equivalency. Why are you comparing all DUI deaths to only mass shootings?

I'm comparing a subset of deaths caused by alcohol (DUIs) and a subset of gun homicides (mass murders) because both are random and strike innocent people. Not to mention we always talk about gun control in response to mass shootings - no one cares when drug dealers kill each other because they know how to avoid that. There is no way to avoid some drunk driver slamming into your kid one day and there is no way to avoid your kid being targeted by a mass shooter.

Guns account for over three times as many deaths annually as DUI incidents. All deaths, for both methods, not your fake, phony, cherry-picked stats. Deal with it.

I'm talking about alcohol. Alcohol kills more ways than DUIs, obviously. But DUIs are an obvious subset to focus on.

Gun homicides are 11,000, the same for DUIs. I don't see why you're factoring in suicides - if someone wants to kill themselves, that's on them. Not to mention, alcohol can be blamed for most suicides as well, if we want to go down that road. How many people were drinking heavily before they decided to end their life?

If you want an apples to apples comparison. All deaths linked to alcohol vs all deaths to guns (inc suicides) then it's 75,000 deaths a year linked to alcohol vs 38,000 linked to guns: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6089353/ns.../#.WpOYPJPwai4

[kokonutty]

Originally Posted by BeachBum87

I'm comparing a subset of deaths caused by alcohol (DUIs) and a subset of gun homicides (mass murders) because both are random and strike innocent people. Not to mention we always talk about gun control in response to mass shootings - no one cares when drug dealers kill each other because they know how to avoid that. There is no way to avoid some drunk driver slamming into your kid one day and there is no way to avoid your kid being targeted by a mass shooter.



I'm talking about alcohol. Alcohol kills more ways than DUIs, obviously. But DUIs are an obvious subset to focus on.

Gun homicides are 11,000, the same for DUIs. I don't see why you're factoring in suicides - if someone wants to kill themselves, that's on them. Not to mention, alcohol can be blamed for most suicides as well, if we want to go down that road. How many people were drinking heavily before they decided to end their life?

If you want an apples to apples comparison. All deaths linked to alcohol vs all deaths to guns (inc suicides) then it's 75,000 deaths a year linked to alcohol vs 38,000 linked to guns: Alcohol linked to 75,000 U.S. deaths a year - Health - Addictions | NBC News

What about killing with intent? Isn't that what most people are talking about? You don't even say how you define a mass shooting. Is it two? Ten? Twenty? If some imbecile shoots your daughter because he wants her phone or doesn't like her hat, is the kid any less dead than if she died with ten of her friends?

Why make it easy for the young or disturbed or young and disturbed to get that gun to shoot an old lady or a classroom full of pre-teens?

Why do you keep focusing on alcohol as an alternative to focusing on guns? Isn't there room to stop unnecessary deaths regardless of the cause? Must we stop fighting cancer to fight heart disease?