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Old 09-27-2010, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Fort Payne Alabama
1,184 posts, read 1,569,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Your.Decision View Post
This "right to work" thing is total BS. It means that you can work at a job for years, do a good job and suddenly just get fired for no reason at all. The employer will go on making $$$, but for the former employee, it could mean a one way ticket to the poor house.
Right To Work has nothing to do with this, it means if the work place is unionized, you cannot be forced to join.
You are thinking of an "At Will State" (7 of them) which means you can be terminated for any reason unless you are in a protected class.
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Old 09-28-2010, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Floribama
14,715 posts, read 31,160,018 times
Reputation: 13475
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggT View Post
Right To Work has nothing to do with this, it means if the work place is unionized, you cannot be forced to join.
You are thinking of an "At Will State" (7 of them) which means you can be terminated for any reason unless you are in a protected class.
I think some people mistakenly believe unions are banned in 'Right to Work' states, which is not true. If a majority of workers want a union they can certainly have one, but they can't force the minority to join. Personally I like having a choice.
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Old 09-28-2010, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
1,303 posts, read 2,664,137 times
Reputation: 1131
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernnaturelover View Post
I think some people mistakenly believe unions are banned in 'Right to Work' states, which is not true. If a majority of workers want a union they can certainly have one, but they can't force the minority to join. Personally I like having a choice.
Hypothetically, if a government entity could somehow intervene and unilaterally declare that all HOA's in their state are to make their association fees optional, how long do you think that any homeowners' associations could exist? Despite expecting a continuation of the association benefits, who would realistically want to pay for not only their association fees, but those of their neighbors (not wishing to pay dues)? Do you honestly expect a unified association to continue to exist with the unfair obstacles placed before it by the government entity?

Call it what you like, but "right to work" is a euphemism for " destroy the unions".
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Old 09-28-2010, 06:46 PM
 
10,576 posts, read 10,788,206 times
Reputation: 5214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retiredcoach View Post
Hypothetically, if a government entity could somehow intervene and unilaterally declare that all HOA's in their state are to make their association fees optional, how long do you think that any homeowners' associations could exist? Despite expecting a continuation of the association benefits, who would realistically want to pay for not only their association fees, but those of their neighbors (not wishing to pay dues)? Do you honestly expect a unified association to continue to exist with the unfair obstacles placed before it by the government entity?

Call it what you like, but "right to work" is a euphemism for " destroy the unions".
So then people shouldn't have a choice whether to join a union or not? That doesn't sound very democratic to me. You have a choice as to whether to live in an HOA community or not. I don't believe the same standard should apply when you have to take a job.

In right-to-work states, workers are destroying unions themselves. Right-to-work has had nothing to do with it.

Boeing workers in South Carolina reject union | Reuters
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Old 09-28-2010, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
1,303 posts, read 2,664,137 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chopchop0 View Post
So then people shouldn't have a choice whether to join a union or not? That doesn't sound very democratic to me. You have a choice as to whether to live in an HOA community or not. I don't believe the same standard should apply when you have to take a job.

In right-to-work states, workers are destroying unions themselves. Right-to-work has had nothing to do with it.

Boeing workers in South Carolina reject union | Reuters
If one chooses to work for a company that has established union representation, and he/she chooses not to be employed by said company, he/she made the choice. If he/she chooses to not work for this company because it is a union presence, a personal choice was made... cannot be any more democratic than that. On the other hand (utilizing the HOA analogy), if an individual chooses to move into an HOA community, and then, decides that it is not fair to be a contributing member, and the autocratic government intervenes, the HOA will be deemed insolvent.... They could call it, "Right to Live Independently". How could an HOA exist without equitable benefits and fees for all members of the association? Unions are being strategically limited with the "right to work" mentality.

Interesting how you chose a link to workers in a state with "right to work" rejecting union representation. Given the hurdles being placed before union, you should not be surprised.
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Old 09-28-2010, 07:53 PM
 
10,576 posts, read 10,788,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retiredcoach View Post
Unions are being strategically limited with the "right to work" mentality.
No one should be forced to join a third-party organization as a condition of employment. It's really that simple. If the unions really provide such a great service, then workers would be joining them of their own accord left and right, correct?

Quote:
Interesting how you chose a link to workers in a state with "right to work" rejecting union representation. Given the hurdles being placed before union, you should not be surprised.
It's not surprising at all, considering SC just beat out WA for the new boeing plant.
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Old 09-28-2010, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
1,303 posts, read 2,664,137 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chopchop0 View Post
No one should be forced to join a third-party organization as a condition of employment. It's really that simple.


By the same logic, why are attorneys required to join the bar before practicing law, or doctors being required to be board certified? Why are those "third parties" that you refer require teachers to be certified, plumbers to be licensed, electricians, truck drivers to earn CDL's, etc.? Even simpler... there are requirements for employment and there is no reason why a union shop cannot be prohibited by expecting the same or similar standards.

If the unions really provide such a great service, then workers would be joining them of their own accord left and right, correct?

Same logic... Would you pay my unpaid taxes willingly yourself, if I decided that I could still receive the same benefits without paying them ? Of course not, and this echoes a certain redundancy to your premise. "Right to Work" can easily be equated with "Right to Steal" when others are expected to pay for benefits that you receive at no cost.

It's not surprising at all, considering SC just beat out WA for the new boeing plant.
Westinghouse had the choice of building a multi-million dollar facility anywhere in the country. They chose a unionized shop near Pittsburgh. Same with Harley-Davidson in Milwaukee. From what I have read, the politicians of South Carolina wielded extraordinary pressure with sweetheart tax benefits and promises of more defense contract money for the Boeing plant. This had little to do with unions or nonunion workforces, but more with free governmental monies.
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Old 09-29-2010, 07:40 AM
 
10,576 posts, read 10,788,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retiredcoach View Post
Westinghouse had the choice of building a multi-million dollar facility anywhere in the country. They chose a unionized shop near Pittsburgh. Same with Harley-Davidson in Milwaukee. From what I have read, the politicians of South Carolina wielded extraordinary pressure with sweetheart tax benefits and promises of more defense contract money for the Boeing plant. This had little to do with unions or nonunion workforces, but more with free governmental monies.
Are you really trying to compare doctors to union workers? Are UAW line workers "professionals" I think not.

And as for incentives, every state is free to do that. Nothing is stopping WA from opening its wallet and luring business to its state. If a state wants to use its finances to lure jobs into the area, that's up to them. Something tells me those citizens would be happy with the decision to create more jobs. And remember, states have to have balanced budgets every year, so unlike Uncle Sam, they are accountable for the $$$$ they use as incentives to get companies to come in.

Quote:
Same logic... Would you pay my unpaid taxes willingly yourself, if I decided that I could still receive the same benefits without paying them ? Of course not, and this echoes a certain redundancy to your premise. "Right to Work" can easily be equated with "Right to Steal" when others are expected to pay for benefits that you receive at no cost.
Hint: The employer is giving you those benefits, not the union. If union dues were used to provide all of the benefits in question, then you might have a point.

Right-to-work keeps the potential manipulation of both workers and employers by unions in check. If you want to see the destructive power of unionized states, go check out MI, OH, and the rest of the rust belt. In the meanwhile, more and more new auto plants spring up in right-to-work states in the south every few years.
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Old 09-29-2010, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
1,303 posts, read 2,664,137 times
Reputation: 1131
Quote:
Originally Posted by chopchop0 View Post
Are you really trying to compare doctors to union workers? Are UAW line workers "professionals" I think not.

Right-to-work keeps the potential manipulation of both workers and employers by unions in check. If you want to see the destructive power of unionized states, go check out MI, OH, and the rest of the rust belt. In the meanwhile, more and more new auto plants spring up in right-to-work states in the south every few years.

What a bunch of baloney!! You are equating the entire downturn of the US auto industry with the collective bargaining process. The building of foreign auto plants in the south has as much to do with free land, monumental government subsidies, total tax forgiveness, relaxed pollution standards and political backstabbing as with the potential for lower labor costs. In other words, who would not choose the state where the state governments remove virtually all costs and risks? The manipulation that you refer is coming from the same sources that "encouraged our banks" to extend risky loans to the unqualified, and then absolved them of any accountability (even providing their corporate management with taxpayer-funded raises). Do you even think that the lesser paid employees at these southern auto plants would be paid even a fraction of what they are paid now if the auto unions did not establish an industry standard of wages?

A big issue in the sporting world is the NFL's attempts to extend the professional football season to 18 games, despite the increasing risks of permanently injuring more players without the due protections of the workplace. As it should be done, the union and owners are working through a resolution via the collective bargaining. This is the only fair way to conduct business with a multi-billion dollar industry striving to make even more money at the expense of its employees.

As America continues to digress more into a country of haves/have nots, the mentality of the "right to work" advocates may come back to haunt them in the future. As government induced business monopolies proliferate under the guise of laissez faire "leadership", there will be a much smaller national populace to purchase their products. Do you really believe the Florida's economy will ever recover to pre-2006 levels with so many unemployed, underemployed, and/or underpaid individuals trying to obtain an elusive livable wage?

Sorry, but "trickle down" economic philosophies, ascribed to being for the greater good, do not work ( see the recession of 2007 and its aftereffects). In a world of needed checks and balances, sometimes unions are the lone balance for the American worker.
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:13 AM
 
10,576 posts, read 10,788,206 times
Reputation: 5214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retiredcoach View Post
Sorry, but "trickle down" economic philosophies, ascribed to being for the greater good, do not work ( see the recession of 2007 and its aftereffects). In a world of needed checks and balances, sometimes unions are the lone balance for the American worker.
Right-to-work would have saved these jobs for the workers that were interested in keeping them. Thanks to the greed of the UAW, a GM plant is now shutting down.

Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis: UAW Workers Vote 457 to 96 to Close Plant Instead of Reducing Salaries

Sorry, but in the modern era of minimum wage, free trade and OSHA, mandatory unions don't really have a place anymore. This is especially true in the public sector where public unions in NY, NJ and CA have been bleeding taxpayers to death with generous benefits and 3-4% yearly COLAs, even during this horrible recession.
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