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Old 06-28-2014, 10:28 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 18,701,065 times
Reputation: 10163

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chopchop0 View Post
Unions were good a century ago for basic worker safety and protection. Now we have something called OSHA.

Modern unions have bankrupted cities in CA and Detroit, and companies like GM. Fact. GM should have gone through a real bankruptcy after making foolish decisions like letting an 18-year old retire at 48 after 30 years with $$$$$ for life. Unions exist only to enrich themselves, period. They could care less about the workers, unless those workers are paying union dues. A parasite will suck its victim dry, while a symbiot learns to co-exist. Unions should have been the latter, but unfortunately they have been the former in many cases.

OSHA would be done away with if the right wing had it's way, it's only the political power of unions and allied liberals that stops that from happening.

Like any other economic entity a union exists to serve it's own interests; the interests of both it's members and officers (who are also members and are elected to their jobs by the membership). No person who understands free market economics should expect anything different. Think of a union as you would a corporation--people acting in common to further their economic interests. Neither unions or corporations need apologize for doing that. A socialist would disagree, of course.

Your litany of union misdeeds is no more a sensible argument against unions in general than a list of corporate misdeeds would be a sensible argument against corporations in general. And FAR more companies have been put out of business by bad management than by unions. So tell me then, if I posted a list of links to moronic management decisions would that then make you anti management? A socialist perhaps?

A person with an understanding of logic should understand the contradictions inherent in "right to work" from a free market or libertarian point of view. Now if you wish to discard defending "right to work" from a libertarian point of view, and wish to simply stand on your economic self interest and the power to work in that interest, just say so. I won't argue with your definition of YOUR self interest.
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Old 06-28-2014, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Spring Hill Florida
12,135 posts, read 13,205,272 times
Reputation: 6009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
You explain what's in YOUR interest, not what's in the interest of workers. Your contempt for workers shines through, brilliantly. And you're unable to make an argument combining conservative economic theory with actual conservative economic practice.

I was in a union for 35 years. I made good living at wages considerably higher than those of non union workers doing the same work. I paid off my house, drove new cars and sent my kids through the University of Illinois; paid every nickel out of pocket--tuition, books, housing, food--everything. Then I retired at 55 with a nice pension.

Now that might not have been in your interest but if you can show how it wasn't in mine I'll call you Aristotle.
I would expect a union worker to support the cause.

I am a regular worker, have been for 40 years. I go to work, do my job, do it well. In turn I get a paycheck and a chance to do it all again next week. I paid off my house 9 years ago. I wouldnt buy a brand new car due to the depreciation factors, no kids, so nobody to pay college for. How did I do it? By doing giving my employer a days work for a days pay. I held my own. I didnt (and dont) need a union rep telling me what should be and what should not be. I may have been hired for one job but have done several different jobs within my jobs. Gave me the benefit of being diversified. So dont think that you are special because you were in a union.

I believe it was unions that ruined our economy. Forced businesses to go elsewhere. Look at the garment industry. Used to be every shirt, pair of pants, suits, etc etc were made right here in the USA with American materials. For the past 50 years or so they have been made in Indonesia, China, South America and other cheap labor countries. Thank you International Ladies Garment Workers for pricing the American worker right out of their jobs.

How about the "Jobs Bank" the UAW invented. The original intent of the Jobs Bank was to provide income security for hourly workers on layoff. By the 1990s laid-off workers could remain “bankers,” as they were nicknamed with knowing irony, for an unlimited time, making 95 percent of their wages while not working. Thus an arrangement begun to protect workers had helped plunge the automakers into red ink and was threatening the survival of the companies that provided their jobs The unions invented contracts that allowed workers to collect pensions and enjoy free healthcare for more years in retirement than they actually spend on the job.

Unions had their place back in the early days of the 20th century. The 40 hour work week etc.
Now Federal law oversees the labor market setting down rules of procedure.

The unions are growing weaker, shrinking in numbers, loosing members. The light has been shining.
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Old 06-28-2014, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Spring Hill Florida
12,135 posts, read 13,205,272 times
Reputation: 6009
Dont expect a 'Brother" to state or even think anti-union. They have been brain washed to believe
what they were fed.

Ponder this:
in 2013 there were 14.5 million UNION members in the U.S.
In 1983 there were 17.7 million union members.

z decisions like letting an 18-year old retire at 48 after 30 years with $$$$$ for life. Unions exist only to enrich themselves, period. They could care less about the workers, unless those workers are paying union dues. A parasite will suck its victim dry, while a symbiot learns to co-exist. Unions should have been the latter, but unfortunately they have been the former in many cases.

Then of course, there are gems like these:

Now what! Neshaminy union defends criminal teacher - EAGnews.org powered by Education Action Group Foundation, Inc.

To Protest Hiring of Nonunion Help, Union Hires Nonunion Pickets - WSJ

Parents stunned that union is seeking a $10K severance for teacher who molested their son - EAGnews.org powered by Education Action Group Foundation, Inc.

Campbell Brown: Teachers Unions Go to Bat for Sexual Predators - WSJ[/quote]
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Old 06-28-2014, 11:25 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 18,701,065 times
Reputation: 10163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring Hillian View Post
Unions had their place back in the early days of the 20th century. The 40 hour work week etc.
Now Federal law oversees the labor market setting down rules of procedure.
The right wing is working now to weaken and repeal those laws. Are you so naive as to believe human nature has changed, that businessmen are now nice guys, willing to do the right thing out of the goodness of their hearts?

NO American, union or not, can work cheap enough to please the businessmen who move production to cheaper labor nations. Note how industries that in the late 20th Century moved from the north to the south to escape unions have now moved to cheaper labor countries. Furniture production moved from Michigan to the Carolinas and now to China. The same with textiles.

You were fortunate, you worked when unions were strong and non union workers benefitted by their presence, when a non union employer had to compete with union wages and benefits to keep good help. Now Big Money, under the guise that money equals free speech, is spending vast amounts of money to destroy unions. If and when that happens all workers will end up rueing the day.

American conservatives were lucky in that from the 1930s on they benefitted by a politically and economically moderate working class, because the working class was prosperous. No Nazis, no Communists, no Anarchists. Now that prosperity is going down the tubes and I fear our social peace will go down the tubes with it. We already see the beginnings of social breakdown among social groups which were once content; the anger evident in this thread (including mine) is an early symptom. The most to be feared are the young educated people who can't find good paying work and assuage themselves in the hipster culture; it's the educated but frustrated who lead revolutions.

I'm reminded of the breakdown of the Roman Republic.

In any event you fail to reconcile "right to work" with free market principles. It appears you no longer care to but appeal only to your notions of self interest.

Last edited by Irishtom29; 06-28-2014 at 11:39 AM..
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Old 06-28-2014, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Spring Hill Florida
12,135 posts, read 13,205,272 times
Reputation: 6009
Sure sure.. and labor unions are going to save us all!!!!
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Old 06-29-2014, 08:21 AM
 
10,576 posts, read 10,796,398 times
Reputation: 5220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring Hillian View Post
Sure sure.. and labor unions are going to save us all!!!!
It's amazing how much union lackeys will ignore the evidence right in front of their faces.... GM, Detroit, CA cities, Hostess, garment/manufacturing etc.
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Old 06-29-2014, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Spring Hill Florida
12,135 posts, read 13,205,272 times
Reputation: 6009
Quote:
Originally Posted by chopchop0 View Post
It's amazing how much union lackeys will ignore the evidence right in front of their faces.... GM, Detroit, CA cities, Hostess, garment/manufacturing etc.


Slackers love the unions because they never have to be a top performer to be successful in their work.
They just have to be average like everybody else on the job. I guess unions are great for those who have no ambition.
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Old 06-29-2014, 09:01 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 18,701,065 times
Reputation: 10163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring Hillian View Post
Slackers love the unions because they never have to be a top performer to be successful in their work.
They just have to be average like everybody else on the job. I guess unions are great for those who have no ambition.
Lacking persuasive arguments and aware of the contradictions between "right to work" and the free market, you and your coat holder chop-chop have resorted to vilification, insults, sarcasm and goal-post moving. Very weak.
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Old 06-29-2014, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Spring Hill Florida
12,135 posts, read 13,205,272 times
Reputation: 6009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
Lacking persuasive arguments and aware of the contradictions between "right to work" and the free market, you and your coat holder chop-chop have resorted to vilification, insults, sarcasm and goal-post moving. Very weak.
I think those who disagree with unions have provided very persuasive arguments. Those who support the idea of unions have not.

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

"In 2013, the union membership rate--the percent of wage and salary workers who were
members of unions--was 11.3 percent, the same as in 2012, the U.S. Bureau of Labor
Statistics reported today. The number of wage and salary workers belonging to
unions, at 14.5 million, was little different from 2012. In 1983, the first year
for which comparable union data are available, the union membership rate was 20.1
percent, and there were 17.7 million union workers."

Read the whole summary: Union Members Summary


Looks like the union people are a huge minority.


Definition of mediocre: Ordinary, average, middle-of-the-road, uninspired, undistinguished, indifferent, unexceptional, unremarkable, run-of-the-mill, lackluster, forgettable.
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:42 AM
 
4,812 posts, read 3,462,993 times
Reputation: 2856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring Hillian View Post

I believe it was unions that ruined our economy. Forced businesses to go elsewhere. Look at the garment industry. Used to be every shirt, pair of pants, suits, etc etc were made right here in the USA with American materials. For the past 50 years or so they have been made in Indonesia, China, South America and other cheap labor countries. Thank you International Ladies Garment Workers for pricing the American worker right out of their jobs.

.
Very myopic view, advances in technology, globalization have allowed goods to be made overseas at cheaper prices, that equation changed when cargo ships are able to bring a container full of stuff for 1k, there is just no way to compete unless consumers are willing to pay a premium for your US made product. Then you are back at the argument of living wages, right now companies do not pay a living wage for a variety of jobs that are not abled to be outsourced. The companies with the highest earnings will see their stock prices rise, its the duty of management to make that happen for their shareholders, management does not survive they do not get to keep their jobs unless they can figure out how to make more money than the year before, in that environment is impossible for a company to take care of its employees.
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