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Old 09-24-2010, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Floribama
14,806 posts, read 31,223,570 times
Reputation: 13593

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakeland Yankee View Post
Those non-union employees only make those wages because of the courageous Union members who fought hard to raise the industry standards.
Unions may have played a part in that 50 years ago, but this is 2010 and in todays society they are no longer needed.

Like you liberals like to say, "times change".
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Old 09-24-2010, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Central Fl
2,903 posts, read 10,920,131 times
Reputation: 2860
Sorry......I'm very conservative, but in MY world they are very much still needed. Sadly, I cannot say more.
If the world was full of good ethics and integrity, honesty, etc, perhaps they would not be needed. The world is not like that, thus, the need still exists.

Frank
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Old 09-24-2010, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Miami
242 posts, read 238,104 times
Reputation: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernnaturelover View Post
Unions may have played a part in that 50 years ago, but this is 2010 and in todays society they are no longer needed.

Like you liberals like to say, "times change".
He's right. All of us basically owe our current working conditions to unions and their members in the past, who fought for the little guy to prevent people from being wholeheartedly exploited by a pure, unfiltered laissez-faire capitalist system. You can throw politics into it all you like, but it's the truth.

This "right to work" thing is total BS. It means that you can work at a job for years, do a good job and suddenly just get fired for no reason at all. The employer will go on making $$$, but for the former employee, it could mean a one way ticket to the poor house.

I believe in the "3 stikes" rule, i.e. 2 verbal warnings and a final written warning before you're out of the door. Such a rule safeguards employment to a greater extent, but also allows companies to terminate genuinely unsuitable employees.
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Old 09-24-2010, 03:07 PM
 
4,984 posts, read 5,049,855 times
Reputation: 6322
Honestly, American workers owe most of their post WII living standards to WWII itself and USSR. WWII left USA virtually unscathed (rolling in cash, gold and production capacity) industrial power amidst ruins and deprivations of the global war , USSR with its socialism forced American ruling class into propaganda competition with workers paradise, part of the propaganda war (which nailed the coffin of USSR) was working conditions and compensation of an average wage unit here and there. Unions played its role, sure, but without Soviet induced pressure "to look pretty" American ruling class would have smashed the unions 50 years earlier. Since back then the art of brainwashing from cradle to grave, isolation and dumbing down as a social control tool was in its cradle, things would have been bloodier. It appears people back then were not mass programmed as the newer crops. BTW, black folks say thanks to USSR also, circa late 1940th it became clear that global propaganda war was not winnable while maintaining legal apartheid system back home.

Guess what, capitalism WON, it no longer needs to look prettier than it is, so spread your buns, sirs and madams, just don't forget to chant how free you are .

It just too unfortunate that working classes are always isolated if not atomized, and ruling classes are always united in their power&wealth quest, that's how minority rules over and parasitize on majority, and it will continue doing so for the foreseeable future.

Celebrating $14/hr for new Huindai temps by not super wealthy (I guess) posters on city data just underlines complete success of American ruling class social control strategy. Slavishness, isolation, dumbing down, media, public education and mass cult. Having all of that why do you need a KGB? Why do you need KGB is everyone is his own jailer? Working and middle class folks celebrating decreasing wages and benefits of autoworkers, how insane is that? Do you really think it will stop there?

How much should a worker make? How much should a Wall Street banker make? There is nothing free about free market, we don't really know what true free market wages are if most of us are plain wage slaves who must sell our arses to the owners of means or starve. Since most of us are not suicidal, sooner or later we are forced to accept whatever is generously given to us. "Right to work" ensures that owning class is given plenty of tools and time to wear unwilling wage units into submission.

How much should be one paid for hard, monotonous, dangerous, unhealthy work? Leave education BS aside, you don't sell your education, you sell hours of your only life? It doesn't matter whether you are Ph.D. or GED, you value your life about the same. The only way to find out is to make a wage unit free of "free" market by providing him with independent means of subsistence. Just imagine a owner of Auto Assembling plants peddling his accident, cancer and professional illness inducing wage wares to truly free people, any takers for $14/hr? Again, we all value our lives about the same, in the truly free society, the most dangerous, the most dull, the most unrewarding jobs would be paid the most. Since we have diametrically opposite arrangement, you can deduct how free we all are
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Old 09-25-2010, 12:05 AM
 
10,575 posts, read 10,809,995 times
Reputation: 5224
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
How much should a worker make? How much should a Wall Street banker make? There is nothing free about free market, we don't really know what true free market wages are if most of us are plain wage slaves who must sell our arses to the owners of means or starve. Since most of us are not suicidal, sooner or later we are forced to accept whatever is generously given to us. "Right to work" ensures that owning class is given plenty of tools and time to wear unwilling wage units into submission.

How much should be one paid for hard, monotonous, dangerous, unhealthy work? Leave education BS aside, you don't sell your education, you sell hours of your only life? It doesn't matter whether you are Ph.D. or GED, you value your life about the same. The only way to find out is to make a wage unit free of "free" market by providing him with independent means of subsistence. Just imagine a owner of Auto Assembling plants peddling his accident, cancer and professional illness inducing wage wares to truly free people, any takers for $14/hr? Again, we all value our lives about the same, in the truly free society, the most dangerous, the most dull, the most unrewarding jobs would be paid the most. Since we have diametrically opposite arrangement, you can deduct how free we all are
sounds to me like you want a utopia. Sorry buddy, but anyone can follow orders and clock-in at 8 and clock-out at 5 and put their 30 years in, with a jobs bank to bail them out if need be.

True innovation takes genius and the right work ethic. What about becoming that Ph.D. or that doctor after several years of education and all of that student debt? Are you telling me the average high-school educated auto worker should be paid a similar wage?

Sounds to me like you pine for the communism of the USSR. Thankfully, that's not coming to a theater near you....
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Old 09-25-2010, 06:10 AM
 
Location: Miami
242 posts, read 238,104 times
Reputation: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by chopchop0 View Post
sounds to me like you want a utopia. Sorry buddy, but anyone can follow orders and clock-in at 8 and clock-out at 5 and put their 30 years in, with a jobs bank to bail them out if need be.

True innovation takes genius and the right work ethic. What about becoming that Ph.D. or that doctor after several years of education and all of that student debt? Are you telling me the average high-school educated auto worker should be paid a similar wage?

Sounds to me like you pine for the communism of the USSR. Thankfully, that's not coming to a theater near you....
Not everyone can be a doctor or an attorney. Not everyone is born with the same gifts. Does that mean people working in menial jobs should be treated like garbage? No....not in a civilized society.
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Old 09-25-2010, 06:22 AM
 
10,575 posts, read 10,809,995 times
Reputation: 5224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Your.Decision View Post
Not everyone can be a doctor or an attorney. Not everyone is born with the same gifts. Does that mean people working in menial jobs should be treated like garbage? No....not in a civilized society.
No, but they shouldn't be treated like royalty because they belong to a union.

Why did these guys get "suspended"?? In the real non-union world, these guy would have been FIRED for what they did:

Auto Workers Suspended After Liquid Lunch - WSJ.com

Why did the UAW force the job bank issue for so many years? If a doctor or attorney is out of work, he/she doesn't have a "job bank" to fall back on. Why should a worker get PAID for NOT DOING ANYTHING??
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Old 09-25-2010, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Central Fl
2,903 posts, read 10,920,131 times
Reputation: 2860
A gentle reminder for everyone to be respectful in your posts.

Also, one must be careful not to paint ALL unions the same. They are not.

In a perfect world, Paramedics would get paid more then the $10 bucks an hour some make to stressfully save lives. Sports figures would not be elevated to Demi-Gods with multi-million dollar salaries. Celebrity would not be confused with talent.

Frank
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Old 09-25-2010, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Miami
242 posts, read 238,104 times
Reputation: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithfulfrank View Post
a gentle reminder for everyone to be respectful in your posts.

Also, one must be careful not to paint all unions the same. They are not.

In a perfect world, paramedics would get paid more then the $10 bucks an hour some make to stressfully save lives. Sports figures would not be elevated to demi-gods with multi-million dollar salaries. Celebrity would not be confused with talent.

Frank
+1
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Old 09-27-2010, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Myrtle Beach
3,378 posts, read 7,874,695 times
Reputation: 2926
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Honestly, American workers owe most of their post WII living standards to WWII itself and USSR. WWII left USA virtually unscathed (rolling in cash, gold and production capacity) industrial power amidst ruins and deprivations of the global war , USSR with its socialism forced American ruling class into propaganda competition with workers paradise, part of the propaganda war (which nailed the coffin of USSR) was working conditions and compensation of an average wage unit here and there. Unions played its role, sure, but without Soviet induced pressure "to look pretty" American ruling class would have smashed the unions 50 years earlier. Since back then the art of brainwashing from cradle to grave, isolation and dumbing down as a social control tool was in its cradle, things would have been bloodier. It appears people back then were not mass programmed as the newer crops. BTW, black folks say thanks to USSR also, circa late 1940th it became clear that global propaganda war was not winnable while maintaining legal apartheid system back home.

Guess what, capitalism WON, it no longer needs to look prettier than it is, so spread your buns, sirs and madams, just don't forget to chant how free you are .

It just too unfortunate that working classes are always isolated if not atomized, and ruling classes are always united in their power&wealth quest, that's how minority rules over and parasitize on majority, and it will continue doing so for the foreseeable future.

Celebrating $14/hr for new Huindai temps by not super wealthy (I guess) posters on city data just underlines complete success of American ruling class social control strategy. Slavishness, isolation, dumbing down, media, public education and mass cult. Having all of that why do you need a KGB? Why do you need KGB is everyone is his own jailer? Working and middle class folks celebrating decreasing wages and benefits of autoworkers, how insane is that? Do you really think it will stop there?

How much should a worker make? How much should a Wall Street banker make? There is nothing free about free market, we don't really know what true free market wages are if most of us are plain wage slaves who must sell our arses to the owners of means or starve. Since most of us are not suicidal, sooner or later we are forced to accept whatever is generously given to us. "Right to work" ensures that owning class is given plenty of tools and time to wear unwilling wage units into submission.

How much should be one paid for hard, monotonous, dangerous, unhealthy work? Leave education BS aside, you don't sell your education, you sell hours of your only life? It doesn't matter whether you are Ph.D. or GED, you value your life about the same. The only way to find out is to make a wage unit free of "free" market by providing him with independent means of subsistence. Just imagine a owner of Auto Assembling plants peddling his accident, cancer and professional illness inducing wage wares to truly free people, any takers for $14/hr? Again, we all value our lives about the same, in the truly free society, the most dangerous, the most dull, the most unrewarding jobs would be paid the most. Since we have diametrically opposite arrangement, you can deduct how free we all are
We could go to Cuba's system. All workers get paid the same, no matter what you do.
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