Pricing of houses (Tampa: condo, evictions, mortgage)
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We moved from Hillsborough county Tampa, in Sept 2005 because prices were too high there. We bought a 2140 sq home for 163+upgrades to total 170,000. in Lakeland brand new. There are still reasonable homes in Lakeland. We plan to sell and buy another for around 170,000 around 1500 sq ft. Lakeland hasnt caught up with rest of state. We find that ordering homes thru builders is cheaper than buying used homes, this is our 3rd.
We always make money, It is very convenient to Orlando and my family is in Tampa. Our car insurance also came down when we moved here.
So take a drive to Lakeland if you are poor like us.
To answer the OP's original question; I agree, Florida has simply "caught up" in home prices to the rest / most of the country. For me (deep pockets, short arms), I just feel that all houses are too expensive; I try to think about if I were starting out again with a new bride, would I be able to afford the last house I owned? I don't think I would or would want to... but I'm not very debt tolerant, certainly not like "most" americans per the averages... It is not in my nature to spend more than I make, nor to spend what I "might" make...
The real issue when discussing Florida housing prices though is Florida wages, and those have NOT caught up to the rest / most of the nation. I was twice offered a job in Florida making 50% of my chicago suburb salary... I made that much 7 years ago before any of the real estate boom.
I do like the way the OP worded his question though in reference to is it really that bad for a "desirable" location... this cheapskate is willing to pay for it
Mr. Burns: "Ah yes, but I'd trade it all... for just a littel more"
I want to know how old PSOltimer is and where he DID work. Then we will talk.
I'm 66 years old, lived in Port St. Lucie since 1972, moved there at age 32 with 2 kids ages 1 and 2-1/2. I have a checkered past. I worked as a cost accountant for General Development Corp, the original developer of PSL. Then, I bought a very small fiberglass boat building company -- really just a couple of molds, some equipment, one part time employee and me -- built 12' fishing skiffs until the oil crises in the '70's raised the price of polyester resin to astronomical heights. Built a couple of custom wood boats for private owners, then closed the business.
Went into real estate in 1977, opened my own brokerage in 1980, specialized in resale of vacant lots in PSL, one-man company. Went broke when Reagan tax-cuts caused the government to borrow all the available savings, raising interest rates to almost 20%. In the process, I was one of the first real estate persons to computerize the county tax rolls. I had to learn to program a computer to make it work. I closed the real estate business and became a programmer for a major company, then went off on my own as a free lance computer programmer -- one man company, again. I wrote custom applications, mostly accounting or data base, for small businesses -- no deep pockets. Along the way, I managed to buy a small house in PSL in an area that was going commercial. With a lot of sweat equity, I turned it into a decent, 1200 sq ft stand-alone commercial property. I rented it to a couple who started a BBQ grill parts business.
The husband died of lung cancer, and his wife, who was an artist, not a business person, struggled and finally had to give up. Rather than see her lose everything, I bought her inventory for a fair price and kept her business open. I was 52 years old and having problems keeping up to date with all the changes in computer programming languages.
Over the next 10 years, I built that into a reasonably successful business selling upscale BBQ grills, grill parts, accessories, propane refills, and our most successful venture, custom outdoor kitchens. I had 3 employees including my son and two old friends. My son decided he preferred his chosen profession, real estate appraisals, and went back to it. One friend had surgery and could no longer work; the other one died. I was 62 years old and decided not to try to train young whippersnappers who would desert me as soon as they learned anything, and I closed the business. I tried to sell it, but it was not profitable enough to support an absentee owner. Those who had the cash to buy it didn't want to actively work in it, and those who were willing to work and had the skills didn't have any money. so I lost a fair amount of money when I closed it. Overall, I made a bare living from it.
My DW is a registered physical therapist who works on contract with the VNA. She has always made more money than me, and, even though she has cut back her time because I'm retired and we like to do things, she still earns the bulk of our income. Since we are both past 65, we now both collect SS. We have income from SS, my DW's parttime therapy income, and the mortgages we are holding on the sale of our commercial property and our mountain cabin, and a few dividends from our stocks. We have always been self-employed so have no 401K or retirement program other than the mortgages we hold.
My wife and I have never had a combined income over $110,000 per year. Now that I'm retired we have a combined income of about $75,000 per year.
We live in a 4/3/2 over 3,000 sq ft. with a screened in-ground pool,[/qoute]
And when did you buy this house? Because right now, with very good credit, to afford a house that size I would need 500k at a minimum! And when was the last time you had your house appraised? What are your taxes now? My taxes were close to 5k a year. Did you file a claim after hurricane Charley ripped your house apart? If so, did your insurance go from 1200 a year to nearly 3k?
My house payment after taxes and insurance ran about $2700 a month. For a 2600 sq ft home in St. Cloud. With great credit.
Oh give me a break! My Infiniti is a 40k car and my payment is 800 a month. So you're telling me you can afford a 95k car on a 75k salary? LOL
Salary for 75k = to about 5500 a month. A 3000 sq ft home would average around 3000k mortgage payment at minimum. Taxes on that would be about 700.00 a month. Insurance about 300.00 a month.
So right there we have about 4000k of your 5500k spent. Now - that car payment would easlily be $1200 (depending on how much you put down, but I cannot assume that.)
So right there is about 5200k. All that extra fun stuff you do on a mere 300.00!!!???
You've got the secret!!!
That's the reality, my friend.
EDIT - You live in Port St Lucie? Well no wonder!! Of course I could afford a lifestyle in Pt St. Lucie!!
Someone in a nice area of Orlando tell me different.
We have no mortgages. We own our house and the property in Okeechobee free and clear. We have no car payments. We paid cash for our cars. We are now members of a Medicare Advantage Plan and have no health-related costs other than our Medicare premiums, less than $100 per month each. We owe no money to anyone. Our highest fixed expenses are for real estate taxes and insurance. Our taxes on our house are around $2,200 per year and on our Okeechobee property about $2,000 per year. The latter is not included in the SOH program because we don't have a house on it.
We bought the house in 1999 for $124,000; it's worth about $285,000 in today's market, although it was valued at around $325,000 last year. I'd sell it to you in a heartbeat for your $500,000 and hold very favorable financing for you.
How did we do it? Thrift and frugality. Let me tell you a story that goes back to when I was about 26 years old. Every day, I carried my lunch in a small brown paper sack. Every day, I folded the sack and put it in my back pocket, carried it home, and used it to pack my lunch the next day, until it fell apart. Then, I would use a new bag. My fellow workers teased me unmercifully, they mocked me and thought my little ritual with the bag was the funniest thing they ever saw.
One day, I came into work with my brand new Canon F1 single lens reflex camera, state of the art in those days, and several lenses. My co-workers stood around it in awe, asking, "How could you afford a camera like that on what we are paid?" I smiled and said, "Remember those paper bags you thought were so funny? They add up."
I could probably teach a course on how to live frugally and still have nice things and do fun things. I could charge a pretty hefty fee based on how much I could save you. The problem is, the first piece of advice I would give you is to quit the course, save the fee, and learn the hard way.
I had no idea the supply was finite. I could have sworn I saw some construction happening around Florida over the last few years. So, not only are they not making anymore land, they ain't making anymore houses either!
You're hitting pretty good on the BS meter yourself, Muggy. You know darn well that the supply is finite at any given time; they don't produce houses as fast as they bottle Coke.
That's especially true in a market like we have right now, in which builders have excess inventory and generally aren't adding to it. And, of course, the supply of resales depends on how many people are selling. But, it stays fairly consistent.
The definition of "finite" is that the amount can be counted, as opposed to "infinite". It doesn't mean that as a house is sold, there won't be a replacement.
You're a pretty smart feller, so I know you know all this and were just trying to pull my chain. Won't work -- I'm smarter than you.
I would have to disagree with you partially on this. I think one of the reasons that housing is so high is partly due to what you said above but also because there are many ways to purchase a home above your means due to "creative financing"--many people are buying with no money down and interest only loans or crazy riduculous ARMs; because that is the only way to be able to really afford the American Dream of owning a home (in South Florida.) Then when their rates adjust --guess what--they can'ty afford it! Palm Beach County has a very high foreclosure rate.
Very true and I read this in the news all the time. Some people still give bad information/advice when they say its OK to spend $275k on a house on a $55k salary. Hello? Youll be forclosed within a couple years if you do that! I wouldnt spend more than $120k to $150k on a $55k salary.
Originally Posted by bmurphy
I'm sorry - where do you get the $35k salary = $80k house? I think a LOT of people with a $35k salary (natl avg. salary is only around $40k) have more than an $80k house.
Its not smart to push things. Are we talking first time buyer with no one to subsidsize your house? Sure if your parents offer to foot the downpayment, you can afford more house. Sure if you already own a house and are relocating, you can use the equity as downpayment for your new house. But first time buyers usually start small and low. Even you said this. Some rent, but personally I wouldnt as the mortgage is cheaper than renting and you get equity!
Originally Posted by bmurphy
Not trying to insult you but I don't see how an $120k makes it hard to afford life ANYWHERE, even California. That's a pretty darn good salary. I mean, if you're struggling, so is virtually everyone in the US apparently.
Sometimes I think people like to exaggerate. I'm not picking on you, but if you're flailing with that kind of salary, something's up. You're either exaggerating to keep people away, or you're not managing it well. I'm not trying to be harsh, maybe I'm wrong, but if you, earning that salary, can't afford Florida, then almost nobody can.
He is right, with a $120k salary you should be able to afford anywhere in FL except the keys and other islands like Singer and Palm Beach islands. Even Miami would be affordable. Youd be able to afford $300k to $350k of house on a $120k salary. That will get you anywhere from a 2 to 6 bedroom house depending where in FL or you can get a very nice 3/2 townhouse or condo in south FL for that kinda money! Anyone struggling on that salary doesnt know how to manage money, no offense. Youd be able to afford many places in CA as well.
Originally Posted by cil
The median price house where we are looking (Amelia Island) is $294K.
How does that compare to South Florida?
I think its like $350k now in S FL. It used to be over $400k but went down and still dropping.
Originally Posted by Jammie
The cost of housing may be comparable to many parts of the U.S., but the wages in those areas seem to be much better. Fla. wages seem to be more comparable to the wages of the midwest where housing is only about half as costly. So, from what I can gather~the Florida wages and the Florida housing just don't match. Add to that the huge cost of taxes and insurance and the middle class and lower class are being wiped out in Florida.
I also have to agree with you that I've found rent to be much cheaper then 1000 a month for 1/1. I'm not talking about in the heart of Orlando or Tampa, but there are many areas that it isn't that high.
Thats why its known as the "sunshine tax" People are willing to work for low wages and pay high prices in order to get away from the cold. Even you are strongly considering the move to FL. Port Saint Lucie may be the best option for you, another poster bought a decent house there for $200k.
PSL - Thank you for sharing a synopsis of your life story... frugality is a long lost art, and that was quite inspiring...
I find it especially interesting hearing how 25 years or so ago you found it difficult to keep up with computers.... I'm a programmer today and that is the single most frustrating thing I battle is trying to chase after the evolution of technology as a father of 2. I don't know many programmers who don't joke (with truth) about opening up a hot dog stand somewhere.
At an income of over 120k, my partner and I couldnt have a decent life in Orlando. After living there for 6 years (the first 3 successfully) it became very hard to be comfortable. Frugal? Would going to a concert once a month fit into that mold? To afford a house in an area that resembles North America, you are looking at at least 300-400k for a small 3/2 house. So leave out East, West, and South Orlando. (sans Windemere/Dr. Phillips - which is surrounded by crime).
Our house in St. Cloud sold for so much we would never be able to come back and have even the lifestyle we once had!
So when another hurricane comes and you have to spend 2000k to board up your house and get supplies, maybe you will rethink your post.
Your posting is an insult to the many hard working people out there who are being forced to move due to insane housing, property, and insurance cost.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to add to the chorus of people saying you should have had NO problem living on $120k. ANYWHERE in Florida. Let alone non-impressive Orlando. The average household income on PALM BEACH ISLAND is around 90k!
Even if you spent 50k/year on your home expenses (which is what? 4000/month in home expenses?!), you still are looking at almost 2X + the average American household income left over!
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