[heydade]

I am putting this in this forum because it related directly to Florida. I've put this in the home forums and nobody can relate since most of them live in areas where impact windows are unheard of, so I will get a better response here I hope. So...some questions

I am going to put some impact windows in my home to replace my 21 year old windows. Installer recommended Lawson windows. He gave me a quote for PGT as well which was 2k more and he says that PGT windows are very easy to break into with a butter knife. That had me sold on the Lawson right away. Anyone have this particular brand and what are your thoughts about the quality of them ?

[mango23]

Originally Posted by heydade

I am putting this in this forum because it related directly to Florida. I've put this in the home forums and nobody can relate since most of them live in areas where impact windows are unheard of, so I will get a better response here I hope. So...some questions

I am going to put some impact windows in my home to replace my 21 year old windows. Installer recommended Lawson windows. He gave me a quote for PGT as well which was 2k more and he says that PGT windows are very easy to break into with a butter knife. That had me sold on the Lawson right away. Anyone have this particular brand and what are your thoughts about the quality of them ?

You have to be sure the whole window is strong. Just impact glass (Or what ever they are made from), is not enough. Most windows have frames that can be ripped out with very little problem. Also My sister in law has those windows and they spent hurricane Wilma in the bathroom. The windows don't provide the kind of sound deadening and feeling of safety as does a shutter. She said it was the most frightening experience of her life. The kids were traumatized. She said inside the house the sound was like the house was blowing apart as 100 mile an hour winds beat rain against the windows. There was no way they could watch or look out it was so scary, just hide.

They also leaked like crazy doing thousands of dollars of damage to her wood floors. Most all insurance in Florida has a 2% deductible. Her house is worth around $500,000 so she was responsible for the first $10,000 before insurance would pay anything.
I on the other hand have custom made 5/8 inch thick plywood panels. We were like a bug in a rug. It was shocking when we went out after the storm. We hardly heard a thing. I slept through the storm.

[heydade]

I have shutters too and plan on using them. I am getting impact windows for two primary reasons :

1.noise reduction

2.security

[Oberon476]

I would suggest that you need to talk with folks locally that have windows from the manufacturers that you mentioned. To decide which manufacturer is better it may be worth looking at BBB and actually looking at what they offer installed in someone’s home. Ask the salesman if they have references and if you could even see their windows installed.

As a few general observations that might help you as you sift thru all the information that is available, I am offering a few bits of information on impact windows.

Impact windows are made with laminated glass, upgraded hardware, and special glazing silicones that make them extremely strong. You can't take an "ordinary" window and throw in some laminated glass and then call it an impact window. It won't pass the test either in the lab setting or in real life.


The impact window is a complete system that includes installation to very specific guidelines down to the type of screw or nail used (even to specific manufacturer of that screw or nail). As well, the window is simply part of the overall house structure that was specifically designed and built with the thought of keeping the storm on the outside and keeping the housing components where they belong - as part of the house.

There are several advantages to using impact glass rather than shutters – not having to travel for hours to protect your home if you happen to be away for some reason is certainly a huge one – but beyond that:

First, and best, they are passive protection…you don't have to do a thing to protect your house if a storm is coming. If you are out-of-town, the house is protected.

Second, (and re-restating) they are passive protection...not just from storms, but from unfriendly people who might want to enter your home when you are not there. Imagine trying to break thru a window or door that has been designed and built to withstand winds of over 150mph and at the same time to withstand impacts from a 2x4 projectile that turns ¾ plywood into kindling. Burglars look elsewhere – which is what you are wanting.

You are after the best of all worlds. Basically, if you want hurricane protection, you want laminated glass. If you want sound abatement, you want laminated glass. If you want to keep bad people out, you want laminated glass. How easy can it be?

Minimizing unwanted sound thru any material is determined by three things – mass, stiffness, and damping of the material. Increasing the mass of a window by using thicker glass will increase sound attenuation and the change from a single pane window to dual pane or triple pane IGU to a window will add glazing mass and thus improve sound performance thru the window; but often not as much as might seem obvious based on the given criteria.

Glass has very little damping ability, but when putting a layer of a more viscous material between two of lites of glass we substantially increase the unit’s ability to dampen sound – thus the advantage of laminated glass which just so happens to be a product that has a layer of more viscous material between two lites of glass – cool how that works right into the explanation!

A single pane of 1/4" laminated glass consisting of two 1/8" lites with the plastic interlayer actually has just about as much sound blocking ability as a 1/2" lite of monolithic glass. The monolithic glass tends to do better at mid to higher frequencies while at the lower frequencies the performance of ¼” laminated and ½” monolithic tend to be about the same as well as the overall STC rating.

Laminated glass, used in impact windows, blocks 99% of UV light from entering your home and also acts as a significant sound barrier as well. Homes that are near airports that are remodeled for soundproofing are retrofitted with laminated glass for that reason. But, those homes generally use a much thinner version than is used for impact resistance.

Laminated glass is made up of two sheets of glass and a plastic interlayer. The two primary types of plastic interlayers most used in laminated glass are PVB or polyvinyl butyral and SGP or Sentry Glass Plus. PVB is a relatively soft and pliable plastic and it is the same material that is used in the windshield of your car; however when used in an impact product it is three times thicker than it is in your car's windshield.

SGP is a much more rigid interlayer that was designed specifically for the impact application. Since your primary concern is sound-blocking you want to use PVB. SGP does little in sound blocking application versus PVB.

Glass is available in three versions; annealed, heat strengthened, or tempered. Glass used for laminated glass in impact windows can be made using annealed, heat strengthened, or tempered. The salesman who told you that "annealed laminated glass is not as good as just pure laminated glass. Lawson has annealed laminated glass." either doesn't know glass very well or else wasn't good at explaining - resulting in a misunderstanding. The term "pure laminated glass" has no meaning.

Annealed glass used in laminated make up will meet your specifications. There is no sound control advantage to using either heat strengthened or tempered laminated glass. There can be windload advantages to using heat strengthened or tempered when laminating, but it isn't as common (by a good bit) versus using annealed glass.

Impact glass comes in thicknesses ranging from a bit under 1/4" up to 3/4" or more. Generally, thicker impact glass is going to be an improvement in sound blocking ability - it also can be a good bit more expensive for several reasons.

From a security standpoint, laminated glass using SGP is a superior product to using PVB. However, both products will stop a 2x4 at 50fps from passing thru the glass. The same 2x4 will punch thru 3/4" plywood more times than not and 1/4" impact glass will stop it better than 95% of the time depending on a few other factors.

[tallrick]

I have homemade windows that are a combination of stainless steel and aluminum with 1/2" thick plexiglass inside and tempered glass outside. The building inspector thankfully did not examine my windows so I got away with installing them. My test was to build an extra one (24" x 36") that was a bathroom window and try and destroy it after installation. A sledgehammer, crowbar and concrete block didn't break it so I simply replaced the window with the extra and feel comfortable about it. A neighbor's home has the Lawson windows in a double-hung style and while they seem sturdy, I bet I could break in one in less than 5 minutes. If you rely on glass to stop debris I recommend non-tempered annealed laminated glass. My window experiment initially failed because when I tempered the glass one window actually shattered the glass after installation. It is a messy job to remove the broken glass and laminate if they ever get broken.

[tomsdiner]

Originally Posted by heydade

I am putting this in this forum because it related directly to Florida. I've put this in the home forums and nobody can relate since most of them live in areas where impact windows are unheard of, so I will get a better response here I hope. So...some questions

I am going to put some impact windows in my home to replace my 21 year old windows. Installer recommended Lawson windows. He gave me a quote for PGT as well which was 2k more and he says that PGT windows are very easy to break into with a butter knife. That had me sold on the Lawson right away. Anyone have this particular brand and what are your thoughts about the quality of them ?

I have been selling PGT windows for over 20 years, you can not open them with a butter knife! it would be impossible The meeting rail has interlocks to seal the frame whem closed. there is no wat to get past the interlocks. Pgt I believe is a superior product to Lawson, and PGT's customer support is number one in the window industry.

[pgt no way]

You can open them with a butter knife.... i was locked out of my house and all you need to do iangle the knife , put some pressure to slide past the upper sash and move the knife towards the cam lock and boom you in.... Do not tell me or others that they cannot, because they can.. I know you sell them but try it first before you say anything

[Integral Windstorm]

I have been selling PGT and Lawson Window Products for the Last 15 years and Can tell you this. Both Are very good products and perform very well in the lab as well as in your home. Lawson has been around since 1954 in Medley, Florida and does pretty well in South florida, There are some design limitation with Lawson cause they do not have all the giant sizes that PGT does. For the most of Us Lawson is the better way to go and I will tell you why.

Lawson Has always backed up their product and have had a great response to getting me what I need. As a dealer, I have called in to my Representative and explained the problem, sent pictures, and requested replacement parts to rectify a particular problem. The trust their Dealers and work with them to take care of the customer. I cannot tell you how valuable this is when you are trying to keep a customer happy.

PGT Has a network of service people they schedule with the homeowner to come out and inspect the validity of the report made by the dealer. They are maily there to make sure the dealers are not scamming to get free parts and labor out of them..This is understandable. But I have personally went out to a job site in Parkland Golf and Country Club to determine why a PGT Picture window was leaking.

A PGT picture window is nothing more than Glass in a frame held in by silicone. No weather stripping or any other factors to cause this window to leak.

When I did the water test initially, I saw the water follow the glass and enter the house thru a frame joint that did not have any sealant applied in the PGT factory.
Knowing this I put PGT's Service rep to the test.

He came out and inspectected the window in 10 minutes or less and said that he would get back to me, And took the homeowner's name, number and address down so that he could further investigate the matter with his superiors.

About a week later I get a call from the homeowner saying that PGT had been there and said that the have concluded that the window was not installed properly and it was not their responsibility, they told my customer that they problem was directly attributed to the installation.........I was furious and calmed my customer down and agreed to show the home owner my findings. Went back out and did a second water test. Customer agreed My company was not at fault and here we go again With PGT.

Called up PGT and arranged another visit with the service department, My appointment was set for 11:30 am. They showed up at 9:00am and wanted to view the problem.......My customer refused to let them enter until I got there. Needless to say she called me immediately.

I arrived at 10:00 with water hose in hand ready to show these people why they're product was failing.

First I put water only on the stucco and perimeter sealant,,,,, No leak That was out of the equation.

I asked 2 people From PGT to go inside and to watch the bottom corner when I applied water to the Glass. Immediately the water came thru their mechanical joint where there was not any caulking. They immediately started tapping on the window for me to stop with the water.

So At that point I went inside and started grilling them. What is Causing this Guys? I thought this was an installation issue when clearly it was coming thru the glass joint. What do you intend to do about this. They wanted to get back to me with their findings, but this was unacceptable at this point.

They finally conceeded and issued a service report to come out and reglaze the window and caulk the joints with silicone where it was missing since day one.

This is my Experience With PGT..... Forgive me for being Biased and favoring Lawson, But unless you went thru what Me and My customer went thru.....You just would not understand.

[BillieUSA]

Take a look at SIW! They have a web site, and there is a factory in Delray Beach. The owner, ABE, will take you on a tour, if you ask. THE PRODUCT BLOWS AWAY LAWSON, AND THE SERVICE SO FAR HAS BEEN OUTSTANDING. You will be amazed at the quality of the framing and the glass. We looked at Lawson and PGT, and chose SIW. You will be dealing with the manufacturer, and they can make all kinds of adjustments.

We can only afford right now to put the hurricane windows out on the patio, but maybe some day we can afford more. We are seniors who will keep our old aluminum interlocking shutters, but we will only put them up if we expect a direct hit.

Does anyone else have experience with SIW?

[Jorge Lopez]

I bought SIW Windows at there factory in Delray Beach, I love the windows. They compared there windows to that of PGT and is a better windows. I installed my windows myself. Jorge