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I'm a pro-growther and this is GREAT NEWS!! Why? Because all those anti-growth and anti-development folks will soon get what they want. As the economy tanks and social services are slashed to zero due to no more jobs and tax revenue which is derived from growth, they will see the error of their ways - hopefully.
It's short-term pain now for long-term again in the future.
Growth is good. The alternative is Detroit.
BTW, Zoning Codes aren't being raped... they are $5 whores that neither satisfy the pro-growth or anti-development crowd. Florida has the worst planning in the country. I can see where the anti-development crowd have some issues with development, but don't blame developers, blame the legal framework in which they must operate: the zoning code. It allows nothing but low-density sprawl and auto-oriented shopping and employment centers. Why can't we get some classy zoning which results in communities people would be proud to live in... maybe then Florida's population will start increasing in a sustainable manner.
I don't think most people are really totally anti-growth or anti-development, I know I am not. I just think most people want to see SMART growth, and developers that also have a respect for the environment and some pride in what they build. We don't want to see every last acre of land paved over or every tree cut down.
Here in Sarasota out on University parkway it is beautiful, as most of the newer developments and shopping centers have a lot of trees, and they have left swaths of greenbelt areas for the wildlife, as well as created ponds (which are for rentention but they have grasses and plantings which make them look nice). I also like the type of development which are created to be self-contained urban lifestyle centers.
I don't think most people are really totally anti-growth or anti-development, I know I am not. I just think most people want to see SMART growth, and developers that also have a respect for the environment and some pride in what they build. We don't want to see every last acre of land paved over or every tree cut down.
I also like the type of development which are created to be self-contained urban lifestyle centers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeGuy9
BTW, Zoning Codes aren't being raped... they are $5 whores that neither satisfy the pro-growth or anti-development crowd. Florida has the worst planning in the country. I can see where the anti-development crowd have some issues with development, but don't blame developers, blame the legal framework in which they must operate: the zoning code. It allows nothing but low-density sprawl and auto-oriented shopping and employment centers. Why can't we get some classy zoning which results in communities people would be proud to live in... maybe then Florida's population will start increasing in a sustainable manner.
I appreciate the way you two individuals have managed to maintain civility and reason in your responses.
I am definitely anti-growth in Florida because what we suffer from PBC on down is the wrath of developer run local governments. A weeks worth of Palm Beach Posts or TPalm papers will have numerous articles on corruption and its cost, vis-a-vis developers. In an ideal world, we would get responsible growth, but PBC, Broward and Dade are not that ideal world. We get strip malls, clustered hi-density condos and a poorly devised infrastructure. Developers are constantly fighting impact fees and fight tooth & nail to get out of paying for infrastructure improvements. They also fight zoning laws regarding fair share and affordable housing issues to name a few, and in Stuart, actively working to get high density sprawlburbia type development in Western Martin Co. an areas who environmental sensitivity and infrastructure cant handle this stuff, but, I digress...Here, a look at Ft. Lauderdale for instance, would be a proverbial A-Z primer on what NOT to do to build a town. Completely unacceptable on any level. From the infrastructure, to the density, its a nightmare. Anecdotally speaking, as a user of alternative transportation and biking-walking etc, S. Florida is not only unfriendly, its hostile. This is a shame because we could be a leader in alt-friendly infrastructure with our flat terrain and year 'round sun. We are perpetuating an auto-centric society when clearly this has proven to be outdated and costly. I could ramble on, but I will spare you. If you are truly interested in this stuff as I am, I would suggest attending zoning and planning commission meetings, or even watching them on the public station and researching different areas like Portland Oregon and their style of development philosophies and the quality of life of their citizenry, to name just one....Also, google the impact central development has had on Okeechobee and the Everglades and what its costing us to clean up.
As mentioned, most anti-growthers are mostly anti-South Florida style growth. We have a nine year backlog of housing and lots of redundant strip malling. We dont need another declasse, chinese drywalled condo compound. We need to forget about development for a while and get some industry here. Sustainable, hi-tech industry. Max Planck and Scripps are a start, we need waaaaay more. Unfortunately for Floridians, big business's arent going to play developer style under-the-table games with petty local pols. Until this changes, we all suffer from S. Florida style development.
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It;s these developers, construction companies, real estate agencies who got rediculously greedy in 2005 that brought us to where Florida is right now. I drive up a road right around the corner on the way to Walmart where thare are 2 abandoned aparment communities from the 2005 beginning of the end. The only structures they nearly finished were the office/clubhouses. Surrounded by fences and overgrown grass. It's just one way to show everything fell out from underneath them. I was at a rental community working in May 2005 when we sold to a "developer" who was going to make millions selling these cheaply made apartments. They spent millions on the property, a ton of money on improvements in and out, kicked everyone out so they could do thier thing, then lost thier butts less than a year later... They folded, and now another company is renting them out again. GREED.... Serves them right.
I appreciate the way you two individuals have managed to maintain civility and reason in your responses.
I am definitely anti-growth in Florida because what we suffer from PBC on down is the wrath of developer run local governments. A weeks worth of Palm Beach Posts or TPalm papers will have numerous articles on corruption and its cost, vis-a-vis developers. Can you provide a link to these articles? I would love to read them. Thanks. In an ideal world, we would get responsible growth, but PBC, Broward and Dade are not that ideal world. We get strip malls, clustered hi-density condos and a poorly devised infrastructure. Please keep in mind, S FL's first development boom occured in the 1920's. This set a precendence on the developmental future of S FL. If you want to waste your time arguing the way things were built in the 1920's go ahead. Developers are constantly fighting impact fees (Somewhat true, but it doesn't really matter. This impact fees are passed on to the purchaser of the lot or house. The lower the impact fees the lower the purchase price, basic economics. In addition, most impact fees are part of city ordinances/codes, government officials set the fees, no negoitations) and fight tooth & nail to get out of paying for infrastructure improvements Developers pay for all on-site infrastructure cost period. Now a developer can be reimbursed the infrastructure cost if a CDD is created. If you are unfamiliar with CDD's, research it. This will really set your hair on fire. If you are referring to off-site improvements you are correct. That is what the impact fees and taxes are for, public improvements. Why is it the developers fault if a county of city can not manage its own finances? Look what happen when development stopped. Local governments have fallen apart, gone bankrupt, etc.. They also fight zoning laws regarding fair share and affordable housing issues to name a few, and in Stuart, actively working to get high density sprawlburbia type development in Western Martin Co. an areas who environmental sensitivity and infrastructure cant handle this stuff, but, I digress... Not sure I follow your point here, but if the infrastructure is planned and designed properly it can handle it. Here, a look at Ft. Lauderdale for instance, would be a proverbial A-Z primer on what NOT to do to build a town. Completely unacceptable on any level. From the infrastructure, to the density, its a nightmare. I'm not familiar with Ft. Lauderdale, but what is wrong with infrastructure? I know traffic might be an issue? Anecdotally speaking, as a user of alternative transportation and biking-walking etc, S. Florida is not only unfriendly, its hostile. Another broad, baseless claim. Do yourself a favor, ride your bike (don't drive, assuming you live in S FL) to A1A in Boca Raton. There is perfectly designed, IMO, network of hike & bike trails and parks system that are seamlessly tied together. What shocked me was how much public land (parks) were located on the oceanside. I would venture to say more than privately owned land. How dare the City use this extremely valuable land for parks, someone could have made millions by putting condos there. Another thing you will notice this time of year, is at dusk the street lights do not turn on. This prevents the sea turtles from getting confused on which direction the ocean is when they hatch. How thoughtful!! They took the wildlife in consideration too!! They even rope off the nest on the beach and make it a federal offense if you disturb the area. You can not even remove the seaweed! This is a shame because we could be a leader in alt-friendly infrastructure with our flat terrain and year 'round sun. We are perpetuating an auto-centric society when clearly this has proven to be outdated and costly. I could ramble on, but I will spare you. If you are truly interested in this stuff as I am, I would suggest attending zoning and planning commission meetings (The be honest, you are better off lobbying the city/county officials and commissioners for code/ordinance changes. Developers just follow the rules (with variances, of course). Elect officials that have your same beliefs so you can get your way.), or even watching them on the public station and researching different areas like Portland Oregon and their style of development philosophies and the quality of life of their citizenry, to name just one....Also, google the impact central development has had on Okeechobee and the Everglades and what its costing us to clean up. Yes, please do the research and found out all of the reasons for the Everglades/Okeechobee restoration. This is a highly technical issue and would be very surprised if you fully understand the entire situation.
As mentioned, most anti-growthers are mostly anti-South Florida style growth. We have a nine year backlog of housing and lots of redundant strip malling. If this is correct, your wishes should come true. No development for nine years. We dont need another declasse, chinese drywalled condo compound. We need to forget about development for a while and get some industry here. Sustainable, hi-tech industry. Max Planck and Scripps are a start, we need waaaaay more. If this happens, where are all these employees going to live? shop? roads/traffic? environment? Should we put a moratorium on tourists, snowbirds, etc.? Unfortunately for Floridians, big business's arent going to play developer style under-the-table games with petty local pols. Until this changes, we all suffer from S. Florida style development. I suggest you add the Sierra Club to your list of professional associations if you have not already done so. They are full of people with your same beliefs and mentality. I could go on but I've wasted enough time on this already.
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I love debate, but it's not as fun in a room full of people with your same mind set. I will try to respond to your claims as civily as possible.
It;s these developers, construction companies, real estate agencies who got rediculously greedy in 2005 that brought us to where Florida is right now. I drive up a road right around the corner on the way to Walmart where thare are 2 abandoned aparment communities from the 2005 beginning of the end. The only structures they nearly finished were the office/clubhouses. Surrounded by fences and overgrown grass. It's just one way to show everything fell out from underneath them. I was at a rental community working in May 2005 when we sold to a "developer" who was going to make millions selling these cheaply made apartments. They spent millions on the property, a ton of money on improvements in and out, kicked everyone out so they could do thier thing, then lost thier butts less than a year later... They folded, and now another company is renting them out again. GREED.... Serves them right.
You are absolutely right. These developers, construction companies, real estate agencies who are now out of business did not pay attention to any of the indicators that things were slowing down because they were "greedy" as you call it. You also need to look at supply-demand. With the mass of people relocating to FL the past 10 years (actually more than 10 yrs, just look at the title of the thread), development had to increase to keep up with the pace.
By the way, what are the names of the 2 vacant apartment complexes you speak of? Sounds like they may have potential. Believe or not, the current craze is purchasing these distressed properties, like you describe, at huge discounted cost from the banks. Would you rather it remain an overgrown, run down vacant eye sore (lowers property value) or have someone come in and clean it up and finish the project?
Last edited by FL Developer; 08-20-2009 at 12:25 PM..
It;s these developers, construction companies, real estate agencies who got rediculously greedy in 2005 that brought us to where Florida is right now. I drive up a road right around the corner on the way to Walmart where thare are 2 abandoned aparment communities from the 2005 beginning of the end. The only structures they nearly finished were the office/clubhouses. Surrounded by fences and overgrown grass. It's just one way to show everything fell out from underneath them. I was at a rental community working in May 2005 when we sold to a "developer" who was going to make millions selling these cheaply made apartments. They spent millions on the property, a ton of money on improvements in and out, kicked everyone out so they could do thier thing, then lost thier butts less than a year later... They folded, and now another company is renting them out again. GREED.... Serves them right.
a few weeks ago. The top 3 foreclosure cities in the country are in order, Modesto, Ca., Las Vegas, Nv., and Ft. Myers, Fl. The narrator mentioned that there are many similarities between Vegas, and Ft. Myers, in that they both were overdeveloped in anticipation of retirees moving there for warm climates. Speculators bought these and drove up the prices in anticipation of making a profit. Developers ran out of money to finish the projects because the people just didn't come in the numbers they anticipated.
A friend of husband's moved to Vegas area and bought in a new development. He put down a LOT of money for a home that wasn't even built yet. This was 2 years ago. As of today, his house has yet to be built. Much of the development has not been completed either (golf course, clubhouse, etc.). The developer is sitting back waiting for more people to buy and bring in money. What can I say? His friend is extremely worried that he will be out all his money and still not have a house. He wife recently lost her job (related field of home decorator)also.
I have no idea what happened in Modesto, but both Vegas and Ft. Myers went with the same mindset of retirees will flock to each respective cities. Big mistake. Young FAMILIES are the backbone of society. With them, however, an area is going to have the necessary jobs for them to earn a living.
With a downturn in the economy a tourist/retiree haven is going to be the first places to suffer the most. Young families will look elsewhere to earn a living. Sunshine and warm weather won't pay your rent/mortgage or put food in your kid's bellies.
You are absolutely right. These developers, construction companies, real estate agencies who are now out of business did not pay attention to any of the indicators that things were slowing down because they were "greedy" as you call it. You also need to look at supply-demand. With the mass of people relocating to FL the past 10 years (actually more than 10 yrs, just look at the title of the thread), development had to increase to keep up with the pace.
By the way, what are the names of the 2 vacant apartment complexes you speak of? Sounds like they may have potential. Believe or not, the current craze is purchasing these distressed properties, like you describe, at huge discounted cost from the banks. Would you rather it remain an overgrown, run down vacant eye sore (lowers property value) or have someone come in and clean it up and finish the project?
They are actually nameless, right off Winkler, east of Metro Parkway. Fort Myers. They are almost like a vacant lot, with only the office built, almost like someone froze time. You can see the plumbing where the buildings were going to be.
So why are people moving out? Where are they going?
And what kind of job disappeared after nine years of training?
Many construction jobs are gone along with others but the report that was used to start this thread over stated the population by 500,000 the year before so they are not a reliable report.
Wait for the census data to come out and I am pretty sure there will be an increase over last year albeit a very small increase.
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CNN report
