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The best part is that everyone would finally OWN their homes! This is something we have not been able to since the early 20'th century. Also the real estate will not crash, and people like me won't complain any more about high property values. There would also be a huge surge in home improvements and some new construction. No more problems with taxes outpacing income, and in Florida food isn't taxed, and we even have some days free of sales tax, for hurricanes and back to school. Sure government would have to tighten it's belt, but I as a citizen would be willing to kick in for some volunteer work, if our tax burden is lessened. Cut off the flow of money to the leeches and the economy can recover. Also more affordable housing can keep more of our residents here. What would i do if the property tax is eliminated?
1) Organize a block party for my street, barbecue for everyone!
2) Prepare my home for my parents
3) Build a new home for myself up in Hendry county
4) Rebuild my parents home. Let them choose between mine and theirs.
5) Rent out or sell the extra home. Invest the profits.
This all costs money which I would be happy to spend. Who knows what other things I may buy without the burden of property taxes!
With my new home and my parents in a new home of my construction, insurance is no longer an issue. Florida is hot, humid and had hurricanes but eliminating property taxes will make it the #1 state in the union! Why can't the state senate see the benefit in this?
Ok, Tallrick convinced me. Sales Tax it is.
(was going to vote neither)
When Save Our Homes was passed, people thought this was great because it capped the rate increases by no more than 3% each year. What people didn't see coming was how much home prices in certain parts of Florida would increase down the road. Remember up to the last 5/6 years home prices didn't climb at the same rate they have the last few years. Many now wish they wouldn't have voted for it, as they now get hurt if they move any place in the state, but who could of for seen todays housing market back then. Many of the same people that voted for SOH, are now retired and on a fixed income, and can't afford to downsize or move all together since their property taxes will most likely be higher for a smaller home, which on a fixed income they can not afford the increase. This is why they sit tight and don't move, can you blame them, no, I would do the same thing or leave the state for a cheaper state (which some are doing).
Who knows if the sales tax is the right way to go, so you lose the money from second home owners/snowbirds but you would get the renters in exchange. Would they be enough to make up for the snowbirds who knows? But at 7.5% in Miami and Miami Beach has a 17% bed tax for the tourists, not sure an extra 2-3% is a great idea.
If you live in a rural area, you would have to be a bit crazy to favor the sales tax increase instead of property taxes. Rural areas do not generally have tourist activities and most people go to another county to make large purchases. Everything you buy out of your own county will enrich the other county and do nothing for you. People won't be coming into your area and paying taxes. Rural areas will be so hard hit they would not be able to cope.
Another problem with increased sales taxes would be increased internet sales. Right now, there is a rough equilibrium between shipping costs and sales taxes. If you buy on line, your shipping charges will be about the same as paying sales tax, locally. But, if the sales tax is increased to a great extent, people will more often choose the shipping charges. Fewer sales will occur locally.
While all businesses will suffer because of that, businesses in border counties will really be hurting. More people will cross the border to make purchases with lower sales tax. I used to live in a border town in Massachusetts next to Nashua, NH, where they have no sales tax. We traveled the 15 miles or so for almost all of our shopping.
People with significant disposable income will be the big gainers. They can defer purchases or have the means to make their purchases out of state. People with low incomes will bear the brunt of the sales tax increase, because almost every dollar they spend is subject to sales tax -- they don't have the luxury of deferring a purchase.
Sellers of luxury items in Florida should be absolutely against an increase in the sales tax. They might as well close up shop. If I want to buy a new RV, for example, I can do so out of state, then register it in one of several states where they are happy to issue me a registration whether or not I'm a resident. If the buyers have a second home out of state, they can register everything there (car, RV, airplane, boat) and save the Florida tax. The out-of-state dealers and border states will be the beneficiaries, Florida will suffer.
I will go so far as to predict that if a sales tax increase is passed, total collections will actually go down rather than up, and many people will be laid off when the businesses close up. Even if I'm wrong and collections go up, do you actually trust the Tallahassee politicians to send all of the extra tax money back to your county? Once they see all that money collected by the state, they will figure ways to siphon some of it off. They do it will lottery money that was supposed to go to education; do you think sales taxes would be any different?
This is the most ridiculous thing I can think of -- except maybe the Save Our Homes law. Before that was passed, I predicted all of the things that are wrong with it. I was right then, and I think I'm right now, about the sales tax.
You do realize that there is NO downside to cutting back government. They are the only reason why intelligent people are failing in their endeavors. Government growth is killing our economy. Almost everything they do is to harm the hard-working independant thinkers. Cut the greedy politicians off, and let the rest of us determine our future. We don't need them!!
You do realize that there is NO downside to cutting back government. They are the only reason why intelligent people are failing in their endeavors. Government growth is killing our economy. Almost everything they do is to harm the hard-working independant thinkers. Cut the greedy politicians off, and let the rest of us determine our future. We don't need them!!
No, I don't realize that at all. In fact, I strongly refute it.
First, your message addressed two things -- you first mentioned cutting back government, then you talked about government growth. Let's talk about cutting back government, first.
Where I live, the fire department and EMS services are among the best in the state. St. Lucie County was one of the first to adopt EMT's -- remember back when "Emergency" was a top-rated TV show -- and a novelty, with their EMT's and cube-van ambulances? St. Lucie had 'em. We were one of the first in the state to have 911 service, and again one of the first to go to enhanced 911. Our fire department is totally professional (no volunteers) and county-wide. Today, almost all are paramedics.
Cut it back? Are you kidding?
Port St. Lucie has earned the rating of safest city in Florida for it's size more than 6 years in a row, and is 8th safest in the entire nation (24th safest of any city in the nation, regardless of size or location). That's a hard-won position, brought about by an accredited police department, dedicated officers great training and leadership -- all at a cost.
Cut it back? Are you kidding?
The city's public works department is one of the top-rated in the nation. Not only do other departments from around the country send representatives to see how we do it, there are even visitors from Europe and Asia who come to learn. Our roads and bridges are in great shape, our drainage works, our vehicle maintenance is one of the best.
Cut it back? Are you kidding?
Even though our city is the second largest land area of any city in the state, second only to Jacksonville which consists of the entire county, our city went from total dependence on wells and septic tanks to a state -of-the-art central water and sewer system in just a few years. Lines for water and sewer had to be run to more than a thousand miles of roads. Today, our utility department is so well-run that other agencies are asking us to take over theirs
Cut it back? Are you kidding?
Parks and recreation, city beauification and landscaping, a new city center with performing arts center, new roads and turnpike interchange, new bio-chemical initiatives, and more -- No cuts, here -- you would have to be kidding.
The results are new jobs, things like the Spring training for the Mets and the home for the PGA professional golf school, the only Club Med on the US mainland, more and more visitors resulting in new hotels and restaurants, and even the dubious "achievement" of being probably the only city with three Walmarts and two Sams Clubs within city limits.
Hard working people failing? Are you kidding? Almost anyone who opens a business here succeeds -- you would have to be a real loser to fair. I was in an unusual business -- my store sold upscale BBQ grills and supplies, service grills, refilled propane tanks and actually delivered full tanks, and constructed custom outdoor kitchens. I thrived, but it was only because the city continued to attract more and more people with substantial disposable incomes. If the city services were cut back, the city would go to heck in a hurry and that's when hard working people would fail.
Government actions in Port St. Lucie drive our economy, not harm it.
Now, I'm sorry you have made choices that make you almost a virtual hermit in your hermetic concrete house on some god-forsaken key, but it seems to have affected your approach to the real world.
I agree, repeal Save Our Homes. Maybe Florida even needs a small income tax. There is a real shortage of revenue at the state and local level to handle growth in a fashion that doesn't turn this place into a 3rd world country.
I agree, repeal Save Our Homes. Maybe Florida even needs a small income tax. There is a real shortage of revenue at the state and local level to handle growth in a fashion that doesn't turn this place into a 3rd world country.
implementing an income tax will only make things worse, one huge reason that retirees and others move to FLA is to avoid income taxes in other states, if they stop coming say bye bye to any recovery in the real estate market, you'll just be subtracting another set of potential buyers
If you live in a rural area, you would have to be a bit crazy to favor the sales tax increase instead of property taxes. Rural areas do not generally have tourist activities and most people go to another county to make large purchases....
Another problem with increased sales taxes would be increased internet sales.....
People with significant disposable income will be the big gainers. They can defer purchases or have the means to make their purchases out of state...
Sellers of luxury items in Florida should be absolutely against an increase in the sales tax. They might as well close up shop....
I will go so far as to predict that if a sales tax increase is passed, total collections will actually go down rather than up, and many people will be laid off when the businesses close up....
This is the most ridiculous thing I can think of -- except maybe the Save Our Homes law. Before that was passed, I predicted all of the things that are wrong with it. I was right then, and I think I'm right now, about the sales tax.
I think some good points were raised, but most problems can be dealt with, with a little advance planning. Here are my solutions to the problems listed by plsOldTimer:
Point #1 - People going to another county to make purchases.
The increase in sales tax would be statewide. If one county imposes a 1% county tax over the state sales tax (as Pinellas does), people aren't going to go through the hassle of driving much farther for 1%. They don't now, and they won't if the state sales tax is increased. Certainly not with today's inflated gas prices.
Point #2 - Increased internet sales instead of local.
There is already an ongoing discussion to make these sales subject to sales tax, and that needs to be enacted right away. It is completely unfair that local business is at a disadvantage, which it already is. Just fix the current problem and make all sales subject to the same tax.
Point #3 - Affluent people will be the big gainers.
They always are. No matter what. But getting rid of property taxes will help everyone - if the rich benefit, it's a shame, but it's more important to help those who are struggling.
Point #4 - Sellers of luxury items might "close up shop."
Businesses are ALREADY closing up shop as they can't afford property taxes/insurance. Property tax is so cumbersome and unfair to business it's not even funny. A business is taxed on "best use" of the property instead of what it does.
Just like residential property tax; you're not taxed on what YOU have - you're taxed on what your neighborhood values are. If a "redeveloper" takes over the property next door - UP GO YOUR TAXES!! Unfair!
Point #5 - Collections will go down, not up, leading to layoffs.
People are already getting laid off when businesses leave due to taxes and insurance.
The poster says the Save Our Homes is "ridiculous." If this "ridiculous" law weren't in place, I would lose MY home. The little home we fixed up when we were much younger and have lived in about 20 years. Save Our Homes was a very godsend to a lot of working people, but a better idea would be to get rid of property tax. It's coercive and it means that you rent your property from the state. Doesn't sound very American to me! Get RID of it!
The way property taxes had been before SOH was awful. If the rich started taking over a working-class neighborhood, no way could the working people stay. They'd be taxed out. NOT FAIR!!!
I do think that simply increasing the sales tax (as it now is) would not be adequate. To increase collections - without the fear of shoppers going elsewhere - we need to re-enact the services tax. There is no good reason for services to be exempt from sales tax - it's another way of singling out retail business for unfair treatment.
Someone in the newspaper said that abolishing property tax "wouldn't help renters." Huh? Do they not realize that landlords pay escalating property taxes which is reflected in escalating rental rates?
Heck, even having an income tax would be better than property tax. Certainly fairer. At least it's based on what you're able to earn, and not forcing people from home just because they can't earn as much as they used to.
But whatever they do, they should get rid of property taxes. No one should be renting from the government.
So if you can't afford to pay your property taxes and chances are that you must fold on your house, lets increase the property tax.
Your comment is correct, but how many large purchases do a family do per year? I rather take the sales tax increase and not having to worry about property taxes. I'm fortunate that I have 7 years to go on my home loan and I'm working on a 2nd retirement at 47. But maybe the ones that are not as fortunate my benefit and can better deal with a 3% sales tax increase....
Sunrico, it's not just a 3% sales tax increase. The Counties and Cities have not begun to address this situation. They will be adding their funding needs percentages on top of the sales tax. I am waiting for the whole picture before I can assess this sitatuation. I want to know what the State will exclude from taxation, how the Counties and Cities are affected, and how overall services will be affected. What I am reading now is just to vague. I'd like to see the State take their time with this measure so we aren't doing this again in a dozen years if they get it wrong like they did with Save Our Homes.
I travel in business to Delaware a few times a year where there are no sales taxes on anything. I buy most of my clothing and shoes when I am there! Shopping is not my most fun thing to do. Neither is sitting in a hotel room or bar so in the evening, I shop while out-of-town and pass the time. I don't see me changing that habit.
Point #1 - People going to another county to make purchases.
I did not make that point. I'm well aware that the increase would be statewide. I made the point that people would go to another state to make their purchases, if they live within a reasonable distance of the state's northern border. People in Pensacola, Tallahassee and Jacksonville would virtually abandon Florida businesses. The rest of us, who travel out of state occasionally, would make an effort to time our purchases to thone times. I agree that people won't drive very far for 1%, but a 2.5 to 3% increase is something else.
I DID refer to neighboring counties regarding the ability of rural counties to collect enough sales tax to pay their costs. I own property in Okeechobee, where the only major store is Walmart. People drive to St. Lucie or Martin County to go to Home Depot or Lowes, department stores and malls, movie theaters with more than 3 screens, any car other than a Ford, Chevy or Dodge (the only dealers in Okeechobee), and hundreds of other businesses and services not offered in Okeechobee. All those sales taxes paid in St. Lucie or Martin counties will benefit the St. Lucie and Martin residents, while the Okeechobee County government will struggle to get enough money to survive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suncoaster
Point #2 - Increased internet sales instead of local.
There is already an ongoing discussion to make these sales subject to sales tax, and that needs to be enacted right away. It is completely unfair that local business is at a disadvantage, which it already is. Just fix the current problem and make all sales subject to the same tax.
Easy to say. People have been discussing this for as long as the internet has existed, and politicians know where their bread is buttered -- they repeatedly promise to never tax the internet It ain't going to happen; people all over the nation will not agree to changes just so Florida can raise their sales tax. The increased sales on the internet WILL happen, however, and Florida businesses -- and sales tax collections -- will suffer as a result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suncoaster
Point #3 - Affluent people will be the big gainers.
They always are. No matter what. But getting rid of property taxes will help everyone - if the rich benefit, it's a shame, but it's more important to help those who are struggling. {I added the bold face}
And you want to help those who are struggling by increasing the sales tax?!!??! That is the most regressive tax that is possible. I outlined the reasons in my first post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suncoaster
Point #4 - Sellers of luxury items might "close up shop."
Businesses are ALREADY closing up shop as they can't afford property taxes/insurance. Property tax is so cumbersome and unfair to business it's not even funny. A business is taxed on "best use" of the property instead of what it does.
Property taxes on business properties are outside of the "Save Our Homes" cap and therefore have had their property taxes raised to unfair levels in order to make up for the selfish "me-first" people who passed SOH. Those under the SOH cap are NOT paying their fair share, so businesses -- along with anyone who tries to buy a different property, and landlords, and investors, all have to make up the difference. You son;t save businesses by raisng the sales tax -- that just makes the items they sell more expensive, and chases customers to somewhere where it is cheaper. You save businesses by repealing SOH and having everyone pay their fair share.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suncoaster
Just like residential property tax; you're not taxed on what YOU have - you're taxed on what your neighborhood values are. If a "redeveloper" takes over the property next door - UP GO YOUR TAXES!! Unfair!
You ARE taxed on what you have -- what you have at current values, not what you paid for it when dollars had a different value. The costs of everything have gone up, and your fair share includes those cost increases. Governments pay 3 times as much for fuel, also -- someone has to pay for the increases. Save Our Homes unfairly protects a class of people from paying their fair share. They don't earn that position, they get it handed to them simply because they are willing to maintain the status quo, and stagnate the economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suncoaster
Point #5 - Collections will go down, not up, leading to layoffs.
People are already getting laid off when businesses leave due to taxes and insurance.
But, increasing the sales tax is NOT the way to fix this. It will make the problem worse, not better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suncoaster
The poster says the Save Our Homes is "ridiculous." If this "ridiculous" law weren't in place, I would lose MY home. The little home we fixed up when we were much younger and have lived in about 20 years. Save Our Homes was a very godsend to a lot of working people, but a better idea would be to get rid of property tax. It's coercive and it means that you rent your property from the state. Doesn't sound very American to me! Get RID of it!
So, it's OK to raise the taxes on everyone else in order to protect YOUR little home? That 's a perfect example of the selfishness to which I referred. YOUR capo is what is ruining the economy of an entire state.
Get rid of property taxes altogether? OK, let's do it in one swell foop. Now, the government services still have to be provided. The cost is exactly the same. How will you pay for them? With a sales tax? How will you pay for the counties that don't have enough sales? If you live in a heavily populated county, are you willing to have a portion of your sales taxes sent to other counties to make up the difference? If you live in a rural county, are you prepared to see a portion of the taxes you pay go to the county where you shop. so they can have more services while you have less? Maybe we should issue everyone a government purchasing card and send the sales taxes for every individual's purchases back to the county where they live. Of course, the paperwork involved in that would raise the cost of collecting, so the tax would have to go up even higher to make up the difference --
BAH. I said it's ridiculous,and it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suncoaster
The way property taxes had been before SOH was awful. If the rich started taking over a working-class neighborhood, no way could the working people stay. They'd be taxed out. NOT FAIR!!!
They were ENTIRELY fair. Everyone paid according to the current value of their homes. If the rich came in a neighborhood and raised values enough so taxes went up, they raised the values! DUH! How did that not benefit the "working people"? I never heard anyone complain when the value of their home went up
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suncoaster
I do think that simply increasing the sales tax (as it now is) would not be adequate. To increase collections - without the fear of shoppers going elsewhere - we need to re-enact the services tax. There is no good reason for services to be exempt from sales tax - it's another way of singling out retail business for unfair treatment.
See, it starts already -- you want to raise taxes! Hey, as long as we don;t have property taxes, let's tax food and clothing, too! They already do in many other states.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suncoaster
Someone in the newspaper said that abolishing property tax "wouldn't help renters." Huh? Do they not realize that landlords pay escalating property taxes which is reflected in escalating rental rates?
At least you recognize that renters do pay property taxes, through their rent, which is more than many people -- including some in this very thread -- who claim that renters are getting a free ride. Property taxes are paid by everyone except the homeless. If everyone paid at the same rate on the same basis of valuation, they would be the most fair taxes in existence. Save Our Homes, however, has created two classes of taxpayers -- those who pay less than their fair share and those who have to pay too much to make up the difference. Property taxes are efficient -- they are collected and spent locally, and don't pass through the hands of the state. Property taxes are controlled by the residents who receive the services -- if they want more services, they pay more taxes. If they want lower taxes, they receive fewer services. That is the most direct and fair form of taxation that exists!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suncoaster
Heck, even having an income tax would be better than property tax. Certainly fairer. At least it's based on what you're able to earn, and not forcing people from home just because they can't earn as much as they used to.
But whatever they do, they should get rid of property taxes. No one should be renting from the government.
Let me make one final point. I should be agreeing with you. I would be one of the biggest winners. I own a nice home in Port St. Lucie and 5 acres in Okeechobee County. It would be great if property taxes are repealed and replaced with a sales tax or, even better, an income tax. Heck, my tax bill would be cut in falf, at least! I would not purchase any more than I purchase now, so my sales tax would cover the property taxes on both properties! Someone else would have to pay more to make up for the difference, but what should I care? An income tax would be even better, because I'm retired and my income is much lower than it used to be.
The taxes on my acreage in Okeechobee are almost as high as the taxes on my Port St. Lucie home, because I have Homestead and a Save Our Homes cap on my house, while the acreage has no protection. Get rid of the property taxes, and I get a free ride on the acreage. The burden would shift to those who have only one little house; they will have to pay enough sales tax or income tax to make up for my free ride. That would be great! Why am I fighting against it? Oh, yeah, I'm a member of a greater group that is important to me, not just looking out for myself at everyone else's expense.
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