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Old 05-16-2010, 01:04 PM
 
238 posts, read 606,507 times
Reputation: 139

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haai View Post
Florida would be a better place if the police could profile individuals that they "suspect" are immigrants? I don't think so. This would mean that every brunette, hispanic-looking individual in our state would be subject to searches, even if they weren't illegal. I guess the civil rights movements meant nothing after all.

I have less-than-kind things to say about this act, and I could go on for a page about it, but I won't. What I will say is that it violates the civil rights of a select group of individuals, and that this immigration reform needs to start in Mexico, not necessarily the US. If nothing were wrong with Mexico, I don't think anyone would need to migrate to the US from that country. And what of illegals from Canada? Why haven't we put an iron curtain across our border with that country? I hear a lot of grief about the Mexicans, but I've yet to hear a complaint about the Canadians.
Well duh!! Canadians are educated and most only come here to winter then go home. They do not suck off our system
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Old 05-16-2010, 01:07 PM
 
Location: SE Florida
1,194 posts, read 3,683,194 times
Reputation: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithfulFrank View Post
Of course, this is a hot topic, with folks on both sides having strong opinions.

I have yet to see some good answers to some questions, like;

1) Doesn't the word "illegal" mean it is against the law? Like being a criminal? Should not criminals be dealt with? When is it "OK" to continue being a criminal?

2) If I enter the country of Mexico, or any other foreign country, being a U.S. citizen, illegally, and stay there illegally, do those other countries treat me differently then we treat "illegals"? Would I get free healthcare, schooling etc? What "rights", if any, would I have??

3) Don't we have legal ways to become a U.S. citizen?

4) What percentage of "illegals" do needed work here that no one else would do?

5) What amount of crimes, etc., are committed by "illegals", and what is the cost of dealing with that?

6) Why do people think "illegals" have the same rights as U.S. citizens?

7) If this law is so wrong, how else should this problem be dealt with? I do
not think the answer is making our country as poor as the places they are
coming from, so they would not be "upgrading"......

8) Does not a state have the right to fix a problem if the Federal Gov't does not?

I carry my license with me all the time. I would not mind showing it once in awhile to prove my legality. Living here is a privilege, not a right. The folks who seem to be all bent about this law do not seem to come up with solutions.

I prevent criminals from entering my home by having good locks. If they do get in, they would be met with deadly force........legally. I do not get rid of my good stuff in hopes of discouraging them from wanting anything. I do not try to bargain with them. I do not try to give them whatever they want so they hopefully go away.

Illegal folks here are a slap in the face to all other immigrants who worked hard to be here legally. When I hear that Mexico is upset at this law I shake my head......who gives that country a right to even HAVE an opinion? When I go to Mexico what rights do I have??

Folks who do not believe in protecting our freedoms do not deserve to enjoy them.

Frank
Your post is OK and I agree with a good portion of it but "this is a very controversial subject". I believe, as my fellow Vietnam Veterans in our small town do, that we should obey the laws set forth.

Those of us that were severely wounded in Vietnam have 40 years of being dumped on and as I understand the Vets here and speak for the Vets here we will remain as humans. Give us and all illegals every piece of human dignity and respect then and while enforcing the laws of the land.

Steve
K Co, 75th Rangers
Vietnam -1969-1970
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Pinellas County
1,402 posts, read 2,499,436 times
Reputation: 980
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
One does not need ILLEGAL labor. One needs to make sure the EXISTING laws are in place for the use of migrant and seasonal workers... you know, DOCUMENTED temporary workers. The US Visa system is already in place for industries that TRULY cannot find Americans to do the jobs. A lot of times, however, farmers and factories are lazy and don't even both advertising their jobs, because they rely on illegal labor that's fast and easy and cheap.


Besides, listen to what you're saying! "I don't want to pay more for my veggies, so near slave labor with no worker protections or safety standards is necessary."

How dreadful! (Not to mention we all pay indirectly when low wages are paid to illegal immigrants... how many tax dollars are spent per year for one child of an illegal immigrant at school, for free lunches, healthcare, etc.)
You know I put that badly and didn't read it before posting. I do not want to have to pay more for my veggies, but acknowledge that when and if all the pay and standards are in place, home grown workers will do the jobs, but right now they do not and yes, you are right, documented temp workers are the way to go. the visa system that is in place however does not fit for farm laborors they dont find it a necessary industry to recruit from overseas, so farmers/factories can only advertise for workers in the US who don't want to do the job. So it is a bit of a vicious circle.

One comment I would make, is that you dont see the illegal workers panhandling the city streets all over Florida but you see plenty of Americans doing this, rather than work for some money, maybe the farmers could drive around those highway intersections each day and take them to do an honest days work for some money - could be the best way of solving two problems
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:02 AM
 
Location: SARASOTA, FLORIDA
11,501 posts, read 13,405,033 times
Reputation: 4876
Quote:
Originally Posted by spotrod View Post
Well duh!! Canadians are educated and most only come here to winter then go home. They do not suck off our system

I agree, Canadians come here for a short time and go back home.
The ones who stay do it legally and they do not have a record of massive crimes being committed.
And when Canadians come here to stay they want to be Americans, respect our laws and our ways. Illegal Mexicans do not. You do not see Canadians demanding welfare and wanting to take over the northern borders states either.
Big difference.
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:12 AM
 
1,468 posts, read 4,157,687 times
Reputation: 1071
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavender View Post
You know I put that badly and didn't read it before posting. I do not want to have to pay more for my veggies, but acknowledge that when and if all the pay and standards are in place, home grown workers will do the jobs, but right now they do not and yes, you are right, documented temp workers are the way to go. the visa system that is in place however does not fit for farm laborors they dont find it a necessary industry to recruit from overseas, so farmers/factories can only advertise for workers in the US who don't want to do the job. So it is a bit of a vicious circle.

One comment I would make, is that you dont see the illegal workers panhandling the city streets all over Florida but you see plenty of Americans doing this, rather than work for some money, maybe the farmers could drive around those highway intersections each day and take them to do an honest days work for some money - could be the best way of solving two problems
Panhandlers often make hundreds of dollars a day. There is no way they would go work in someones fields for next to nothing. The whole flaw in the, "They do work Americans won't do" is. They only do it because they have no choice. You give them papers to work and they will be looking for better jobs. They won't need to hide in the shadows anymore. Not all of them are stupid, quite the contrary.
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:05 AM
 
17,297 posts, read 25,654,767 times
Reputation: 8567
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksmith76 View Post
What's going on in Arizona has little to do with illegal immigration and everything to do with our insane Drug War which has made Northern Mexico as dangerous as Afghanistan. The fact that ethnic studies classes have been banned in Arizona answers any questions about whether or not this is a racist policy. Old white men just carried out two of the largest attacks on our country with the Stock Market crash and the Gulf Oil spill, but real Americans insist on picking on our corporate slave labor force instead.
Right, because there are no black or other "persons of color" in the finance industry. Franklin Raines at Fannie, the former CEO of American Express.... all white guys with really really dark tans. There are no black or Latino or non-whites in the oil industry either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksmith76
Someone needs to do something about this Un-American writing on the Statue of Liberty:

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Um, Lady Liberty has been in place a long time before social services came into the picture.

So, which do you want: A basic standard of first world living and a social net for citizens and invited immigrants, or a place for the world's poor to "pour" on in unchecked?

Because you can't have both.
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:08 AM
 
17,297 posts, read 25,654,767 times
Reputation: 8567
Quote:
Originally Posted by mango23 View Post
Panhandlers often make hundreds of dollars a day. There is no way they would go work in someones fields for next to nothing. The whole flaw in the, "They do work Americans won't do" is. They only do it because they have no choice. You give them papers to work and they will be looking for better jobs. They won't need to hide in the shadows anymore. Not all of them are stupid, quite the contrary.

So then if the current illegal immigrants come in from the shadows (thus, they no longer have to take the alleged jobs Americans won't do).... who takes their place? More illegal immigration? Isn't that a negative feedback loop?


It's always amazing, though, when I travel to states without large illegal populations, I see white guys and black guys doing all the jobs that "Americans" don't want to do in FLorida... like road work, construction, fast food, yard services....

Funny how that works.

Last edited by TriMT7; 05-17-2010 at 08:16 AM..
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:16 AM
 
17,297 posts, read 25,654,767 times
Reputation: 8567
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavender
One comment I would make, is that you dont see the illegal workers panhandling the city streets all over Florida but you see plenty of Americans doing this, rather than work for some money, maybe the farmers could drive around those highway intersections each day and take them to do an honest days work for some money - could be the best way of solving two problems

Around these parts, it's the same group of people day after day that are panhandlers. They've made it a profession. You are right though, I rarely see "visible" "Latinos" (I have a hard time categorizing indigenous Amerindians as "Latinos") panhandling. However, you will find many at the social services offices.

In the end, we've got enough of our "own" who cannot pull their own weight, I just see no benefit in taking in the world's underclasses? Most people who are for it seems to have ethnic affinity... doing what's best for "people who look like me" rather than what's best for America. That's a shame, and the same kind of racist mentality (from a different perspective) that would compel someone to want to keep out all people who DON'T look like them.


I was friends with a guy involved in tomato distribution from farms in Immokalee. A lot of times, the land is owned by Latino farmers who simply find it easier to hire through their existing contacts to bring in the migrant work. No legal procedures, just, "Hey Juan, get me 50 workers here next week."

A crackdown on employers who utilize illegal labor definitely needs to happen, but I have a feeling the same people will call any such crackdown "racist" as well!
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
261 posts, read 621,148 times
Reputation: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Right, because there are no black or other "persons of color" in the finance industry. Franklin Raines at Fannie, the former CEO of American Express.... all white guys with really really dark tans. There are no black or Latino or non-whites in the oil industry either.
Okay, that was probably a bit out of line, but I think you know what I'm saying. Illegal immigrants are not the massive threat you guys are making them out to be. They are allowed to live here because they have no rights and live in modern day slavery conditions. Without them how are we going to have our 10 for $1 ears of corn and the $1 value menu?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Um, Lady Liberty has been in place a long time before social services came into the picture.

So, which do you want: A basic standard of first world living and a social net for citizens and invited immigrants, or a place for the world's poor to "pour" on in unchecked?

Because you can't have both.
Which do you want, a truly free country, or a fascist regime where someone can be arrested simply for walking down the street without their papers. Because you can't have both.

No one is saying that it's not a problem, but this isn't the proper response. I've been in countries like China and Vietnam where the governments are oppressive. It was obvious that I was a foreigner and I've never once been asked for my papers. In fact you aren't supposed to bring your passport with you in case it gets stolen. It should be locked in a box in your hotel room. Nice country you people are trying to create. Funny that people are mad that the Mexican president has warned Mexicans not to travel to Arizona. Gee, I wonder why Latino tourists wouldn't want to go there.
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:20 AM
 
17,297 posts, read 25,654,767 times
Reputation: 8567
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksmith76 View Post
Okay, that was probably a bit out of line, but I think you know what I'm saying. Illegal immigrants are not the massive threat you guys are making them out to be. They are allowed to live here because they have no rights and live in modern day slavery conditions. Without them how are we going to have our 10 for $1 ears of corn and the $1 value menu?
By opening up our markets to agricultural products grown in other parts of the world (dare I say, even in 3rd world markets, which may alleviate the need to "immigrate").

It's a quality of life issue for AMERICANS, overall, to be interested in reducing illegal immigration.



Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksmith76
Which do you want, a truly free country, or a fascist regime where someone can be arrested simply for walking down the street without their papers. Because you can't have both.
We don't have that. The Arizona law does not compel that, as it essentially mirrors federal law (which, by the way, requires all non-citizens to carry identification).

Compared to the rest of the world, South of the Border included, America affords more rights and privileges to immigrants than just about anyone else. I do not feel it is a burden to expect a) immigrants to follow the law to get here, and b) to expect that if they are here illegally, that they may just get caught.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksmith76
No one is saying that it's not a problem, but this isn't the proper response. I've been in countries like China and Vietnam where the governments are oppressive. It was obvious that I was a foreigner and I've never once been asked for my papers. In fact you aren't supposed to bring your passport with you in case it gets stolen. It should be locked in a box in your hotel room. Nice country you people are trying to create. Funny that people are mad that the Mexican president has warned Mexicans not to travel to Arizona. Gee, I wonder why Latino tourists wouldn't want to go there.
It's also probably very obvious that you are just a visitor and not trying to live illegally in that country. You should read up on how China deals with runaways from North Korea. It has also been published that China has had to "crackdown" on illegal immigration in recent years itself.

As for the hypocritical Mexican president, he needs to learn to keep his nose out of our business (oh wait, it IS his business because Mexico actively encourages the migration of its indigenous underclass into the United States at such a rate that 10% of its population now resides in the United States).

Meanwhile, it's own RACIST policies against its own people and illegal immigrants from Guatemala, Honduras, etc. are draconian and shameful. It's land use laws are exclusionary, it's illegal to protest the government as a non-citizen, and forget about holding certain jobs.


Sorry, but in America, there is no harm in carrying a greencard (my father does it, per LAW) with you wherever you go if you are a legal immigrant. In the REAL WORLD, it will also be unlikely that a 5th generation "Latino" immigrant will be picked up by the cops, not know a lick of English, and have no way to prove that they didn't just cross the border a week ago illegally.

Illegal immigrants have NO reasonable expectation to be free from inquiries as to their residency status. Any abuses of the law by police will be dealt with the same way as other abuses of the law... lawsuits.

(By the way, ALL laws have potential for abuse, profiling, etc.... you yourself did the same thing when you profiled financial crimes as being perpetrated by white men... in reality, most ARE perpetrated by white men! Criminal activity is often situational. More "Latinos" in a position to immigrate illegally, more white guys in a position to embezzle from bank funds).
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