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Old 06-07-2010, 05:37 PM
 
10,540 posts, read 10,751,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaughnwilliams View Post
I think the decline (the elimination, actually) of defined pensions are going to be pretty detrimental to Florida and similar states that basically rely on population growth for economic survival. The whole retiree boom of past years was fueled by defined pensions. It may not be noticeable right away-there's still many who are vested with a pension-but the days of Frank and Marge retiring from John Deere with a steady income and moving to Florida for the good life may be coming to an end. Before you say it, not everyone (myself included) is savvy enough to make a killing in the stock market or can economically survive the roller coaster of Wall Street. Say what you want about defined pensions, but they allowed many, many folks to retire to Florida and the state is going to notice the absence.
Imagine those states that handed out lavious pensions left and right. States like NY, MI and NJ have huge pension liabilities. I'd rather be FL than any of those states which have to deal not only with future pension obligations but enormous budget deficits as far as the eye can see.

MI had the Big 3, NY had wall st. and now both of those institutions are in shambles.

 
Old 06-07-2010, 05:54 PM
 
17,298 posts, read 25,598,251 times
Reputation: 8567
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaughnwilliams View Post
I think the decline (the elimination, actually) of defined pensions are going to be pretty detrimental to Florida and similar states that basically rely on population growth for economic survival. The whole retiree boom of past years was fueled by defined pensions. It may not be noticeable right away-there's still many who are vested with a pension-but the days of Frank and Marge retiring from John Deere with a steady income and moving to Florida for the good life may be coming to an end. Before you say it, not everyone (myself included) is savvy enough to make a killing in the stock market or can economically survive the roller coaster of Wall Street. Say what you want about defined pensions, but they allowed many, many folks to retire to Florida and the state is going to notice the absence.


States that had defined pensions typically (had and have) higher COL than Florida, which, contrary to the OP's analysis, is more affordable than its been in over a decade.

So, assuming Marge and Frank want to downsize or move to a new place after retirement to escape both taxed retirement income and winter weather, and live close to the beach, they'll be just as ahead (or behind) in Florida as they would elsewhere.


Florida has had boom and bust cycles since its inception. If PITTSBURGH of all places could have a Renaissance, so can and will Florida rise again.
 
Old 06-07-2010, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Lincoln County Road or Armageddon
4,224 posts, read 5,664,474 times
Reputation: 5770
My point was that Frank and Marge of the future aren't going to be getting those defined pensions from their employers. Instead, they're going to be dependent on a 401k that their employers may, or more probable, may not contribute to. I'm not talking only a pension for government retirees, I'm also talking about companies that have had defined pensions in the past. I know it's a hard concept for people in the South to accept, but there was a time where many, many employers offered a pension.
 
Old 06-07-2010, 07:09 PM
 
10,540 posts, read 10,751,109 times
Reputation: 5193
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaughnwilliams View Post
I know it's a hard concept for people in the South to accept, but there was a time where many, many employers offered a pension.
And look at where that got Detroit.

Hey, GM: Can I retire at 48, too? MSN Money
 
Old 06-07-2010, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
1,303 posts, read 2,660,956 times
Reputation: 1131
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
States that had defined pensions typically (had and have) higher COL than Florida, which, contrary to the OP's analysis, is more affordable than its been in over a decade.

So, assuming Marge and Frank want to downsize or move to a new place after retirement to escape both taxed retirement income and winter weather, and live close to the beach, they'll be just as ahead (or behind) in Florida as they would elsewhere.


Florida has had boom and bust cycles since its inception. If PITTSBURGH of all places could have a Renaissance, so can and will Florida rise again.
It has taken Pittsburgh well over 40 years to progress from one of the most smog-filled, dirty and polluted cities in the western world to the a level of livability again. It was forced to adjust to being an area that evolved around a steel industry that provided quality jobs, and the business opportunities closely tied to it. When the jobs left, Pittsburgh experienced what much of Florida is feeling now... a true need to re-examine itself, its future, and its need to evolve with the times. Pittsburgh needed to evolve due to necessity, but a strong civic mentality has/was in place long before I was born, and will be here long after I am gone. Neighbors taking care of neighbors is more than a slogan here, it is a lifestyle. The city is building itself around this strong medical and college/university network that allows for an overall better quality of life. The schools are among the best in the country (especially in many of the suburban areas), providing opportunities for our youth. The library network is second to none, and our stadiums/arena are the highest of quality.

You say that Florida can and will rise again, please tell me where it is going to start? Like many who said that our country cannot survive without the steel industry, can Florida survive without the superficial bail-outs, and/or the probable loss of dollars that have long been generated by the tourism or construction industries?

Too many of these posts have been more "rah-rah" about Florida's plan for its future than insightful. Florida is dealing with a 12% unemployment rate, but this figure does not include the chronically unemployed, the illegals, or the underemployed. Is there a plan anywhere in Florida to create jobs with livable wages? Why is Florida still among the nation's leaders in high school drop-out rates, and what is being done (beyond the cuts to school funding)?

I would like to be able to live in Florida one day, as I have the accrued finances to do so. I would want my Florida neighbors and their kids to have the opportunities and chances to live their American dream as my equal,however, not my subordinate. I would not want to view my neighbors through a gate, but at a neighborhood picnic. I would want a sense of prosperity for all, not for the select few who arrived with their out-of-state pensions living as aloof, entitled divas. Maybe I should rephrase my thread to say... "Is this the worst time ever in Florida for the have-nots?"
 
Old 06-07-2010, 09:06 PM
 
Location: it depends
6,074 posts, read 5,305,466 times
Reputation: 5771
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retiredcoach View Post
It has taken Pittsburgh well over 40 years to progress from one of the most smog-filled, dirty and polluted cities in the western world to the a level of livability again. It was forced to adjust to being an area that evolved around a steel industry that provided quality jobs, and the business opportunities closely tied to it. When the jobs left, Pittsburgh experienced what much of Florida is feeling now... a true need to re-examine itself, its future, and its need to evolve with the times. Pittsburgh needed to evolve due to necessity, but a strong civic mentality has/was in place long before I was born, and will be here long after I am gone. Neighbors taking care of neighbors is more than a slogan here, it is a lifestyle. The city is building itself around this strong medical and college/university network that allows for an overall better quality of life. The schools are among the best in the country (especially in many of the suburban areas), providing opportunities for our youth. The library network is second to none, and our stadiums/arena are the highest of quality.

You say that Florida can and will rise again, please tell me where it is going to start? Like many who said that our country cannot survive without the steel industry, can Florida survive without the superficial bail-outs, and/or the probable loss of dollars that have long been generated by the tourism or construction industries?

Too many of these posts have been more "rah-rah" about Florida's plan for its future than insightful. Florida is dealing with a 12% unemployment rate, but this figure does not include the chronically unemployed, the illegals, or the underemployed. Is there a plan anywhere in Florida to create jobs with livable wages? Why is Florida still among the nation's leaders in high school drop-out rates, and what is being done (beyond the cuts to school funding)?

I would like to be able to live in Florida one day, as I have the accrued finances to do so. I would want my Florida neighbors and their kids to have the opportunities and chances to live their American dream as my equal,however, not my subordinate. I would not want to view my neighbors through a gate, but at a neighborhood picnic. I would want a sense of prosperity for all, not for the select few who arrived with their out-of-state pensions living as aloof, entitled divas. Maybe I should rephrase my thread to say... "Is this the worst time ever in Florida for the have-nots?"
You want to know the plan? Consider the progress made in living standards in America from 1960 to 2000, from 1920 to 1960, from 1880 to 1920, from 1880 to 1920, from 1840 to 1880, etc. Do you think somewhere in 1960 there was a plan that said "We will invent and commercialize personal computers and software that will revolutionize business productivity and dramatically boost incomes and wealth?" (Not to mention the myriad other developments.) There was no plan, and there never has been one.

Progress in America has always been made in the same way the troops took the initiative on Omaha Beach on D-Day. The preliminary bombardment failed to disrupt the defensive positions, the chain of command was totally shot, casualties were massive, communications were nil, virtually no aspect of the original plan worked. Yet the surviving troops each came to their own individual decision: With no way to retreat, and no way to survive on the beach, the only way out was up the hill to root out the defenders. And swarm up the hill they did.

We do not have a centrally planned economy, we have a dynamic free market system in which each of us has the opportunity to meet the needs of others on terms of mutual benefit. If you want plans, look in the archives for the Five Year Plans of the USSR.

One of the sources of American prosperity is that each one of us is freer to unlock the highest fraction of our own potential than anywhere else in the world. This speaks to your comment about education: it is key to expanding that opportunity, and therefore key to our collective future prosperity. But that is as much a national problem as a Florida problem; dropout rates are at criminally negligent levels across the land, and massive reforms are needed.

So yes, with that underlying faith in the American System, one might conclude that I am just a "rah rah" Pollyanna. In reality, I am just well-acquainted with our history of progress and understand the basics of our system that make that progress possible. Bottom line, I don't know the plan for how a dynamic market of 18 million people finds prosperity again--but it will.
 
Old 06-07-2010, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
1,303 posts, read 2,660,956 times
Reputation: 1131
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcopolo View Post
You want to know the plan? Consider the progress made in living standards in America from 1960 to 2000, from 1920 to 1960, from 1880 to 1920, from 1880 to 1920, from 1840 to 1880, etc. Do you think somewhere in 1960 there was a plan that said "We will invent and commercialize personal computers and software that will revolutionize business productivity and dramatically boost incomes and wealth?" (Not to mention the myriad other developments.) There was no plan, and there never has been one.

Progress in America has always been made in the same way the troops took the initiative on Omaha Beach on D-Day. The preliminary bombardment failed to disrupt the defensive positions, the chain of command was totally shot, casualties were massive, communications were nil, virtually no aspect of the original plan worked. Yet the surviving troops each came to their own individual decision: With no way to retreat, and no way to survive on the beach, the only way out was up the hill to root out the defenders. And swarm up the hill they did.

We do not have a centrally planned economy, we have a dynamic free market system in which each of us has the opportunity to meet the needs of others on terms of mutual benefit. If you want plans, look in the archives for the Five Year Plans of the USSR.

One of the sources of American prosperity is that each one of us is freer to unlock the highest fraction of our own potential than anywhere else in the world. This speaks to your comment about education: it is key to expanding that opportunity, and therefore key to our collective future prosperity. But that is as much a national problem as a Florida problem; dropout rates are at criminally negligent levels across the land, and massive reforms are needed.

So yes, with that underlying faith in the American System, one might conclude that I am just a "rah rah" Pollyanna. In reality, I am just well-acquainted with our history of progress and understand the basics of our system that make that progress possible. Bottom line, I don't know the plan for how a dynamic market of 18 million people finds prosperity again--but it will.
Marco,

Your diatribe has all the elements of an old John Wayne movie, complete with the tossing of the grenade into the German foxhole, after pulling the pin with his teeth!! Are you sure that you are not a Republican politician?

Do you really, honestly believe that you are living in the midst of a free market system? If so, could you please explain how recent governmental bail-outs of the banks (carte blanche with the bonuses for the undeserving), the auto industry (with "Cash for Clunkers") and the housing industry (with the generous tax credits) are symptomatic of a free market system? How about the selective governmental military inducements given to certain regions of the country with the generous military contracts and bases? Even the outrageously expensive space program in Florida is another example of a contrast in a free market system.

The American governmental intervention is paramount to the success (or failure) of many industries, not only in the present, but the past and future. Your optimism does not translate into reality, and that reality is that the free market system that you aspire does not exist. A company, a corporation, or an individual has been/ will be handcuffed (or rewarded) only to the extent that our government will allow.
 
Old 06-07-2010, 10:12 PM
 
Location: it depends
6,074 posts, read 5,305,466 times
Reputation: 5771
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retiredcoach View Post
Marco,

Your diatribe has all the elements of an old John Wayne movie, complete with the tossing of the grenade into the German foxhole, after pulling the pin with his teeth!! Are you sure that you are not a Republican politician?

Do you really, honestly believe that you are living in the midst of a free market system? If so, could you please explain how recent governmental bail-outs of the banks (carte blanche with the bonuses for the undeserving), the auto industry (with "Cash for Clunkers") and the housing industry (with the generous tax credits) are symptomatic of a free market system? How about the selective governmental military inducements given to certain regions of the country with the generous military contracts and bases? Even the outrageously expensive space program in Florida is another example of a contrast in a free market system.

The American governmental intervention is paramount to the success (or failure) of many industries, not only in the present, but the past and future. Your optimism does not translate into reality, and that reality is that the free market system that you aspire does not exist. A company, a corporation, or an individual has been/ will be handcuffed (or rewarded) only to the extent that our government will allow.
Coach, you nailed it--except I'm no party hack. I am honored by the John Wayne reference.

We have elements of a free market system, and I have hopes that government intervention/control can be rolled back. The current direction is horrible but the pendulum may swing back. You are right on about the banks/automakers/housing. We would probably disagree about the extent of current control. I firmly believe there is a tradeoff between increased government spending and prosperity, but I think there is a better future out there for us as we work through current problems.
 
Old 10-22-2010, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Florida -
8,744 posts, read 10,732,348 times
Reputation: 16567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomadicus View Post
FL is having good times compared to the times my folks tell me about during the great depression when weeds in the yard were used for food. Yes times are good. The glass is nearly full. The glass never runs over anywhere. Why is FL the chosen state to be slammed when the northern states are struggling too?
... Because, given the right circumstances (ability to sell one's house in the cold north; and acquire a replacement income in Florida -- or anywhere else) --people everywhere would still move to Florida in a heartbeat! -- Florida-bashing is about 'Florida-envy!'

You don't see Floridians taking shots at Pittsburgh ... or anywhere else for that matter. Why bother - we've already made the choice between problems up north ... and problems in paradise -- and have taken action to live-out our choice of the latter.
 
Old 10-22-2010, 09:46 AM
 
1,377 posts, read 3,723,517 times
Reputation: 983
It's a pretty sad fact that a hurricane, of all things, is even considered to "boost" the economy of a state. That's Floriduh for 'ya.
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