U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Food and Drink
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-28-2018, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Middle Tennessee
183,825 posts, read 74,960,655 times
Reputation: 128825

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nov3 View Post




okay its official...silliness has met its epex!


Goodness gracious folks... wait til the consumers find out that logically it should cost way less to grow veggies that have no pesticides or previous soil chemical treatment.


Rotating soil crops has been a key. Reckon the Amish in my area could make a killing with this "organic" hype. Since they do not enhance the soil ..for higher yield. THey make do.
There again organic makes people thing no pesticides. That's false. Organic growers have their legal pesticides. Neem oil is just one. I suspect within a few years those will be found bad for humans too. Take a look at all the organic pesticide approved or organic crops at the nearest garden center.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-28-2018, 11:29 AM
 
Location: McAllen, TX
2,901 posts, read 1,928,267 times
Reputation: 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomadicus View Post
There again organic makes people thing no pesticides. That's false. Organic growers have their legal pesticides. Neem oil is just one. I suspect within a few years those will be found bad for humans too. Take a look at all the organic pesticide approved or organic crops at the nearest garden center.
Good point on the organic pesticides. I've never had complete confidence in anything being free of pesticides. I do not normally buy organic veggies for that reason. In some cases the difference is clear (to me), like lettuce and other greens. It's only a difference of a couple of dollars anyway. Consistency is another issue if you don't do it all the time then what's the point?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2018, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Middle Tennessee
183,825 posts, read 74,960,655 times
Reputation: 128825
Quote:
Originally Posted by gguerra View Post
Good point on the organic pesticides. I've never had complete confidence in anything being free of pesticides. I do not normally buy organic veggies for that reason. In some cases the difference is clear (to me), like lettuce and other greens. It's only a difference of a couple of dollars anyway. Consistency is another issue if you don't do it all the time then what's the point?
Use a spreadsheet with that two dollars over a 40 year period to normal retirement age. It can be millions. My grandparents farmed. DDT, lead arsenic, nicotine were the go to pesticides. They ate what they raised and it tasted very good as I ate from their table. Grandmother die young at 97, my mother is living at 97, farther in law raised the same also died young at 96. Father died young at 54 from inhaled nicotine.. smoker.
I for one have never discerned even the most minute difference in the quality of taste in organic which I have bought at Amish farms. In fact one purchase of tomatoes was inferior to local tomatoes purchased at Kroger. There are so many variables from one purchase to the next for me to ever attribute good tastes to being organic raised or grown.


For a footnote: I drank a container of DDT that my parents neighbor had mixed up an left on the ground while he went in to his house. My stomach got pumped which I have no memory of at the age of 1 1/2 years. I probably got exposed to more chlorinated hydro carbon that day than most could get in a life time. Now I read posts every so often of kids refusing to eat non organic vegetable for fear of dying. Times are changing good or bad largely because of well meaning people repeating on the internet what someone published for the almighty dollar.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2018, 01:27 PM
 
Location: McAllen, TX
2,901 posts, read 1,928,267 times
Reputation: 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomadicus View Post
Use a spreadsheet with that two dollars over a 40 year period to normal retirement age. It can be millions. My grandparents farmed. DDT, lead arsenic, nicotine were the go to pesticides. They ate what they raised and it tasted very good as I ate from their table. Grandmother die young at 97, my mother is living at 97, farther in law raised the same also died young at 96. Father died young at 54 from inhaled nicotine.. smoker.
I for one have never discerned even the most minute difference in the quality of taste in organic which I have bought at Amish farms. In fact one purchase of tomatoes was inferior to local tomatoes purchased at Kroger. There are so many variables from one purchase to the next for me to ever attribute good tastes to being organic raised or grown.


For a footnote: I drank a container of DDT that my parents neighbor had mixed up an left on the ground while he went in to his house. My stomach got pumped which I have no memory of at the age of 1 1/2 years. I probably got exposed to more chlorinated hydro carbon that day than most could get in a life time. Now I read posts every so often of kids refusing to eat non organic vegetable for fear of dying. Times are changing good or bad largely because of well meaning people repeating on the internet what someone published for the almighty dollar.
I hear this argument all the time. That pesticides do no harm, till they DO. Take for example, cancer. That one many times is almost impossible to trace to anything specific unless it's lung cancer or something like that. I for one am not worried about the extra two dollars even if it can be millions which I seriously doubt it. $2 x 52 weeks x 40 years = $4160. I really have no fear of dying, that's not it. It's like dropping food on the floor. Do you pick it up and eat it or throw it away? For me it depends, I will wash it off and eat it if I can. Our bodies are made to withstand toxins. We are surrounded by germs, in the air, on surfaces we touch and yes in our food. But why tempt fate? If pesticides are designed to kill pests then why consume more than we have to?

But the topic is on taste of organic vs non-organic and taste is purely subjective. Can't win on that one way or another, it's just an opinion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2018, 02:10 PM
 
1,953 posts, read 752,771 times
Reputation: 7779
I'm not big on farmer's markets any more, not since about the third time I saw a giant truck from California unloading the "locally grown" produce. It WAS locally grown - somewhere in California, not here. (That was at 3 different farmer's markets in 3 different states)

If the varieties are the same, I've never seen a difference between alleged "organic" and "regular". But sometimes you can get different varieties that were not developed to ship and keep well. Often these usually older, largely non-commercial varieties have better flavor than the stuff in the grocery store that just ships well.

Organic makes no difference to flavor, and you have no evidence when buying that something is actually organic. Often terms associated with organic - such as "heritage" and "free range" are perverted by large agricultural concerns. Chicken superfarms get away with labeling eggs and chicken "free-range" by putting a door in one end of the barn into a 10' square fenced yard consisting of nothing but dust. Then they let the birds out of the cage for about an hour a day. Some of them may actually wander out into the dusty yard, where there is nothing living for them to free-range on. EG nothing to eat. They are still debeaked. They still eat mash exclusively.

The only way to get real organic is to raise your own. Many places have backyard chicken allowances. That's the best way to get your free-range eggs and meat. And a garden is the best way to get fresh and/or organic vegetables.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2018, 02:46 PM
 
1,953 posts, read 752,771 times
Reputation: 7779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboa View Post
Try raw milk. Its about half cream.
Only if its from a Jersey. IF its from the typical commercial breeds, it's way lower in fats and solids as well. Here are some typical figures:

Holstein milk:
3.65% protein
3.06% fat
12.4% milk solids

I can't find the ranges for Holstein milk at the moment, but I do know that when a herd falls below 3% fat they have to supplement it with higher fat milk from Jerseys or Guernseys to bring the fat content UP to 3% to sell as 3% milk. Otherwise it has to be fractionated and sold as 2% or skim, which brings less money.

Jersey milk:
3.7% to 4.6% protein
4.6% to 6.4% fat
14.6% milk solids

Milk solids contribute a lot to flavor (among other things). Skim milk from a Jersey tastes better than skim milk from a Holstein because of the greater amount of milk solids in the Jersey milk.

There is also a difference in the QUALITY of proteins. Jersey milk is high in A2 proteins. Holsteins are high in A1 proteins. Recent research indicates (does not prove only indicates) that a lot of the people who think they are lactose intolerant are actually unable to properly digest the A1 protein. The A1 protein may contribute to the development of several diseases in humans where the A2 protein does not seem to be implicated. But the research is in its infancy. If I could I would drink Jersey milk exclusively but there are no dairies in the desert. So commercial milk mostly from Holsteins is all I have access to.

Jerseys breed earlier and have fewer reproductive problems. Holsteins give "more" milk but it has more water in it. Jersey milk fat makes larger particles and make better cheese, butter and cream. Feed conversion is about the same for either breed (Jerseys have a slight edge) until you look at pasturage, then Jerseys have a larger advantage. Holsteins are huge; Jerseys are smaller and better tempered, both of which make them a lot easier to handle.

Except for the bulls. Jersey bulls are probably the smartest, meanest, sneakiest domestic bovines. My dad used to go to cattle auctions with his dad and he said whenever they auctioned off a Jersey bull, someone would come running down the chute yelling "JERSEY BULL!! JERSEY BULL!!" and everyone would stop loafing on the chute or climb higher up on the sides, then a Jersey bull would come running down the chute trying to knock people off the sides by banging on it. They only get smarter, meaner, and sneakier with age.

Thankfully there is always AI.

Last edited by Pyewackette; 08-28-2018 at 02:56 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-29-2018, 02:36 AM
 
4,810 posts, read 5,434,536 times
Reputation: 7576
Potatoes. The first time I bought organic potatoes, I was shocked at how much better they tasted.

Plus, potatoes are one of the most heavily treated veggies with pesticides when they aren't organic. I believe they are on the list of the "Dirty Dozen" fruits and vegetables that you really should buy organic.

Apples are also on the Dirty Dozen list.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-29-2018, 04:44 AM
 
17,158 posts, read 22,161,261 times
Reputation: 31223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomadicus View Post
There again organic makes people thing no pesticides. That's false. Organic growers have their legal pesticides. Neem oil is just one. I suspect within a few years those will be found bad for humans too. Take a look at all the organic pesticide approved or organic crops at the nearest garden center.
great post!!

I bought a 3 dollar orange from whole foods....
I swear it was the same as the supermarket had for 2/1.00 so if I dont rave how good they were..... that makes me a fool for paying so much
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-29-2018, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
69,259 posts, read 79,427,308 times
Reputation: 38626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyewackette View Post
I'm not big on farmer's markets any more, not since about the third time I saw a giant truck from California unloading the "locally grown" produce. It WAS locally grown - somewhere in California, not here. (That was at 3 different farmer's markets in 3 different states)

If the varieties are the same, I've never seen a difference between alleged "organic" and "regular". But sometimes you can get different varieties that were not developed to ship and keep well. Often these usually older, largely non-commercial varieties have better flavor than the stuff in the grocery store that just ships well.

Organic makes no difference to flavor, and you have no evidence when buying that something is actually organic. Often terms associated with organic - such as "heritage" and "free range" are perverted by large agricultural concerns. Chicken superfarms get away with labeling eggs and chicken "free-range" by putting a door in one end of the barn into a 10' square fenced yard consisting of nothing but dust. Then they let the birds out of the cage for about an hour a day. Some of them may actually wander out into the dusty yard, where there is nothing living for them to free-range on. EG nothing to eat. They are still debeaked. They still eat mash exclusively.

The only way to get real organic is to raise your own. Many places have backyard chicken allowances. That's the best way to get your free-range eggs and meat. And a garden is the best way to get fresh and/or organic vegetables.
Many of our farmers markets are required to post where the produce comes from and some will not allow sellers that are more than 50 miles away. We also have gotten to the place that mostly we use very small markets where we almost feel like the vendors are our friends. They even know the names of some of their regulars. Of course we live more in a rural area. When we used to shop at the huge market in Dallas the vendors were required to have a sign up telling us whether they were the actual growers or middle men for a larger group. We only shopped at the actually growers stands. We have always found the produce we have purchased at the farmers markets fresher. As for organic, never really seen a difference as I have mentioned on the tread before.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-29-2018, 06:15 AM
 
Location: Middle Tennessee
183,825 posts, read 74,960,655 times
Reputation: 128825
I can't help but believe after 50 years of growing food and selling fresh produce from time to time getting rave reports from non organics but carefully using what was needed to get a crop out of the field that would sell to a fickle market based on looks that rave reviews on first time organic buyers is a placebo based on expectations of it just being better. I don't respond to placebos whether for food or medicines. My brain is an infertile field for the magic of placebos. It is very true if you are healed from a placebo in a drug program test you are healed and to that I can say if organic tastes better because of a placebo more power to the buyer and seller.. The utopian approach to food production by the unlearned in agricultural science would lead to massive starvation if there are not sufficient back up supplies to feed the masses. Small market farmers are a dying breed over all. The men of old are dying off and kids not taking up the trade of market gardening to produce enough organic grown to feed the world. So taste tests should be done for organics just like the FDA requires of medicine to bring to light and taste difference using well know good tasting varieties grown 4 different ways with double blind methods with absolute secrecy between the testers and the preparers. One set of preparers and one set of servers and one two sets of tasters. Then maybe some real truth about if there is a real taste difference out there. How many bloggers get paid to post on the web both yay and nay are there out there? Sorry for the wordy post but this is an issue that faces the world and is most important to me as a consumer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Food and Drink
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top