Since there's a few lincoln threads- what does Lincoln need to do? (sedans, coupes)
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I have reached the point in my life where I was thinking about buying a new Lincoln, at least until I seen the bland rounded lumps they are trying to pass as Lincolns now-a-days. Now I know that the tooling for these cars probably has to be shared with Ford to cut costs and I know that they are trying their best to discuise the Lincolns, which really are modified Ford Tauruses and recently, modified Ford Fusions, but these cars are not Lincolns, there is no real elegance, no real class, and these lumps do nothing but tarnish the memory of the Lincolns that most of us know and remember.
Didn't anyone reread their auto history and recall what happened to Packard back back in 1957 and 1958 when they tried to dress up Studebakers and pass them off as Packards?? It didn't work then and it is not working not.
People are not looking for some bland round lump, but a quality and classy car that says "King of the Road" right when you first see it, not when you scratch your head and only know what it is when you find an emblem on the sad rounded egg that say Lincoln....These are not classics, never will be, and history will soon forget they and the Lincoln company even existed..........
You echo my sentiments also.
The Lincoln forum that I belong to has a discussion going on for a while now concerning the MKZ.
Some obviously do not agree with me, and are die hard lovers of the direction Lincoln has taken.
Take a look.
You can tell the post I made by the tbird in the signature section. The Lincoln Forum.Net • View topic - Lincoln Struggles, Pins Future On Zephyr/MKZ
Bob.
I haven't seen a new MKZ in my town yet. The only Lincoln I would consider is the MKT and it is hideous IMO. I would just as soon buy another Volvo to replace my XC90.
Lincoln offers nothing that appeals to me. I agree a RWD platform would be a good start.
Cadillac is on their A-game? There hasn't been a Cadillac made since 1992 - or 1996 if you stretch the definition a little.
But to stretch the definition to the sad lot that bears the Cadillac name today is to stretch a rubber band from Detroit to Tokyo. If Cadillac "is on their A-game", what could possibly be lacking in the new Lincolns? Other than a Lincoln, of course. But I repeat myself.
I think your taste is much like Fleet. You like big, land barge kind of cars. And current Cadillacs are not much like that. But if Cadillac was still making lots of land barges, they'd be in trouble too. The problem is there are only a few ten thousand buyers like you. That isn't enough for GM (or Lincoln). These brands need to sell much more to remain viable. Hence the SUVs and cars like the CTS.
I think Lincoln needs to represent the very best of Ford. The past of Lincoln, as embodied by Town Cars, isn't a formula for future success. There just aren't many people who want a 19 ft. long car.
So I think Lincoln needs the following vehicles:
1. A RWD sports coupe (doesn't exist today). It must have more Hp than any Ford except a Shelby. It should be good enough to compete against a BMW 6 Series or Jaguar, but at a bit lower cost. 5.0L would be a great choice. Carbon fiber in interesting places.
2. A mid-size 4 door sports sedan, preferably AWD or RWD. A smooth fast highway car. Target benchmark is E-class, 5 series, or Infiniti. More performance than any Ford.
3. A mid-size SUV. Target MDX and X5. AWD only.
4. A full size 4 door sedan. More Jaguar than BMW.
5. A full size SUV to replace the pathetic Navigator. I would never buy one of these but I think they need one.
Exactly. Lexus was basically a spin-off brand that STARTED with cars that were built off of Toyota platforms. When people see today's Lincolns being built off of Fusions, they automatically think back to the cars that Lincoln used to make, and hence it might seem to some people that making a Lincoln out of a Fusion is kind of cheating.
One of the things that I pointed out and Drover echoed in his response is that Lexus didn't start with the ES. Lexus started with the LS. While that was just a rebadged Toyota Crown, it was not sold as a Toyota anything in the US market, making the Lexus "unique". Lexus earned their brand credibility with that model and then moved the brand downstream where the cachet carried over so that people didn't see an ES as a rebadged Camry even though it was. Lincoln as a brand has no cachet.
Also, it's important to point out that the luxury market itself went through major changes in the 90's and early 00's. The luxury market used to be about mid and fullsize cars. However, in the 90's that started to change and it was the "compact executive cars" that began to define the market and still do. Less than 10% of Tier 1 luxury brand sales are on their larger vehicles, the market has shifted.
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Originally Posted by Fleet
There is a difference, though. Many of those old-timers who liked '20s and '30s cars also liked '50s and '60 cars. I know someone who is 81 years old whose first car was a '37 Plymouth. He likes cars of that era but also cars up to the '70s. And he even owns a '79 Lincoln Mark V. He does not like modern cars at all; calls them "plastic bubbles."
He probably likes American cars up to the '70s because they did not yet look like Japanese cars with 90% plastic.
You totally missed the point as evidenced by the back and forth between you and silverbox. Very, very few people wanted those types of cars, that's why they stopped building them.
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Originally Posted by CrownVic95
What they'll never get, Fleet, is that their comparison analogy is 180 degrees upside down. Today's cars are the Model T - again.
We've been going backward since the 80s.
Styling aside, modern cars are superior in every measurable way to older cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet
What? That most music up to the '70s is still desirable and that modern music is not? On an absolute scale, not just going by "music you grew up to."
Look up some youtube videos of '50s-'70s music and read some of the comments of 12-18 year old people saying things like "Why can't they make music like this anymore?" Or, "I am only 13 years old and love '50s-'70s music."
There are minority groups in every demographic. Companies don't cater to the minority. I guarantee you if Lincoln or Cadillac resurrected one of the "classics" it would be the worst selling car in its class. Just as no one would buy resurrected doo-wop records.
Your mistake is in assuming that appreciation for is the same as desire for.
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Originally Posted by Fleet
Wait a minute... what modern Cadillac has a "daring" design? It's more like boxy/stumpy... looking like most other modern cars. Chopped off front and rear ends, plastic bumpers, plain-looking blackwall tires, little chrome, etc.
Can't really be compared to the '50s Cadillacs, especially the mid-to-late '50s Cadillacs... which actually looked like Cadillacs!
The entire Cadillac lineup has very unique design language in the market. What does a Cadillac look like anyway?
They're all Cadillacs, so which one is the "real" one?
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Originally Posted by Drover
The problem with the Lincoln/Lexus comparison is that Lexus has higher-end RWD platforms that help sell the volume-positioned FWD ES by giving the whole brand legitimacy. Lincoln doesn't. The problem isn't just that the MKZ is a dolled-up Fusion -- the problem is a dolled-up Taurus is the best Lincoln has to offer. And yeah, the current Mustang platform doesn't have to be particularly state-of-the-art because the current target market doesn't demand it. But Ford has plans to bring the Mustang to the world market and they'll need to make substantial improvements to the platform if they have a prayer. If they can put a Lincoln on it too, great.
As for Audi, they have been marketing on architecture too, playing up the AWD heritage angle for all it's worth (which turns out to be plenty as every luxury maker is scrambling to add an AWD option).
Absolutely. That's the point that Lincoln seems to be missing. Lexus didn't build its reputation on rebadged Camry's, even if that is what is now the volume seller for them. Audi, banked on their "unique" use of AWD (similar to Subaru's strategy) and their unique styling. Lincoln could be succesful here if they started making cars that appealed to a broad base in terms of styling. Audi has long established itself as a styling leader and that helps sell cars regardless of what wheels the engine drives. The new MKZ is a step in the right direction, but that grill (while better) is still hard to get past. The rest of the car looks pretty good in person.
The next-gen Mustang is slated to gain IRS as standard which Ford felt was needed to make it more "world competitive". We'll see how it goes as Ford hasn't had the best of luck with IRS Mustang's (in their defense though all the previous IRS ones have been retrofits) and the "faithful" want their solid axle. I could definitely see a 3-series/ATS sized Lincoln on the Mustang platform. GM is using the ATS platform to underpin the next Camaro, so it can definitely be done.
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Originally Posted by bmwguydc
Another aspect as to how Lincoln lost its way is that Ford does not have a clearly defined consumer in mind for whom the vehicles are produced. The differences are further muddied by Ford's movement upmarket with the higher trim levels of its cars. The Titanium trim on the Fords is problematic for Lincoln, as the Titanium Fords are akin to entry level luxury. Since this trim is under the main brand's banner, essentially replacing Mercury with the Ford Titanium, Lincoln's sales are eroded by competition from another division of the same company.
*snip for space*
I do think that Lincoln could have gotten by without a true flagship for a while, as Cadillac is doing, but because of the marketing decision to put entry-level luxury under the Ford brand, the stakes are higher for Lincoln to be a luxury brand, and that's where the illusion begins to unravel as the Titanium Fords are competitive from a value standpoint, not Lincoln. And, Lincoln does not have enough luxury, currently, to make a difference. If Ford really put true luxury and technology packages into the Lincoln that were solely the purview of Lincoln, it could breathe enough life into the shared platforms, such that it would be viable. However, playing catch Cadillac with Ford platforms and minor differences is not going to cement Lincoln's place as an American luxury marque.
Excellent points regarding the "Titanium" trim. Ford did that to try and keep Mercury buyers, but it had the run-off effect of cannibalizing Lincoln. I think the overall decision is evident of the conflict within Ford over the brand. Mulally is pretty vocal about the "Lincoln experiment" and I think he is of the mindset that the main Ford brand can cover all the bases without a luxury division. As it is, the Ford brand overlaps a couple of "tiers" on most models. They cover everything from entry-level to mainstream to "low-end" luxury. Ford does with Ford alone what GM does with Chevy and Buick. It ends up leaving Lincoln in the lurch.
At this point they may be better off just scrapping the whole brand and then pulling a "Hyundai" and releasing a Genesis/Equus type of vehicle that could use the Lincoln name or classic Lincoln model names.
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Originally Posted by Tourian
There's only four or five segments in luxury that matter and that make money and Lincoln hasn't made a significant dent in any of them. Cadillac has, and along with Buick has brought GM back in the luxury game.
Lexus ES
Lexus RX
BMW 3
Mercedes E
Mercedes GL vs Cadillac Escalade
These are the top sellers and GM has credible competition for each of them with the CTS, SRX, Lacrosse/XTS and ATS. The only reason I put the GL on there is because it just recently beat the Escalade out in sales, and the escalade is old and due for a redesign.
Lincoln comes with some confusing nomenclature, questionable styling (the MKT is ugly and the Navigator is a has been. Plus they have no RWD platform which you have to have for credibility in the 3 and E segment.
That is the market. What every brand needs though is that prestige car that helps capture buyers. While Cadillac seemingly went without a "flagship" they did produce the CTS-V which went a long way to getting people interested in Cadillac again. Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Lexus all have top-tier performance or flagship cars that built the brands reputation. Cadillac took the interesting route of "out M'ing" BMW in the midsize segment and now they are looking at the flagship.
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Originally Posted by CrownVic95
My thoughts exactly - from day one - on those ridiculous "letter" cars.
What they apparently ran out of is pride in their own product's rich history, became followers and wannabes, and rightfully failed....a small subset of the big picture failure of the American auto industry's quest to out-Toyota Toyota beginning in the early 80s.
Most of the names simply don't resonate with the target markets or carry a lot of baggage. "Eldorado" may have meant something in the past, but it just sounds old and out of place now. Since most of the older nameplates had become the punchlines to a bad joke, they were scrapped in favor of a more modern naming style. I do agree to a point that a name would be nice though. They didn't need to trade on the old names, but they could have come up with new ones.
The next-gen Mustang is slated to gain IRS as standard which Ford felt was needed to make it more "world competitive". We'll see how it goes as Ford hasn't had the best of luck with IRS Mustang's (in their defense though all the previous IRS ones have been retrofits) and the "faithful" want their solid axle. I could definitely see a 3-series/ATS sized Lincoln on the Mustang platform. GM is using the ATS platform to underpin the next Camaro, so it can definitely be done.
Perhaps I overestimate Ford's ambition but it looks like the next gen will do more than just add IRS but will be a thorough re-engineering to make it a legitimate sports-coupe contender somewhere in between, say, the Sciobaru BR-FR-Z-S and the Skyline/G-Coupe. The "faithful" are getting old and the retro thing isn't going to carry the segment for much longer and Ford looks to be taking the Mustang in a much different direction that reflects this fact. A Lincoln C-segment competitor (and/or maybe an E-segment on a stretched platform) would be a nice by-product.
Perhaps I overestimate Ford's ambition but it looks like the next gen will do more than just add IRS but will be a thorough re-engineering to make it a legitimate sports-coupe contender somewhere in between, say, the Sciobaru BR-FR-Z-S and the Skyline/G-Coupe. The "faithful" are getting old and the retro thing isn't going to carry the segment for much longer and Ford looks to be taking the Mustang in a much different direction that reflects this fact. A Lincoln C-segment competitor (and/or maybe an E-segment on a stretched platform) would be a nice by-product.
The rumor mill is all over the place on the 2015 Mustang. Some are saying IRS, some are saying no; there are no less than 6 different engines associate with it; some claim the styling is way more "sports coupe" while others are saying it is unmistakably "Mustang" and far more evolutionary than revolutionary. One thing that has been pretty much confirmed though is that it will be sold globally and more aggressively. That is based on the redesign containing Euro specific things like pedestrian impact bumpers and LED rear fogs. A few people have gone to focus groups about the car and the comparative vehicles were the: Challenger, Camaro, Genesis and FR-S/BR-Z.
The most reliable I heard was that it would be IRS, the styling is more "Mustang" than "Aston", the engine options will be a 2.3 Ecoboost, 5.0 Coyote and an Ecoboost 5.0 (the current GT500 engine won't fit in the new platform). So, the low-end looks like it will be targeting the FR-S/BR-Z and Genesis coupe markets while the GT and up will be still be aimed squarely at the Camaro and Challenger.
I see the general conversation on this thread had changed little: A few people who think anything newer than 1970 is heinous and that big land yachts are the only way to go, followed by various grossly generalized statements and so forth. Like I said earlier, tastes change, and one classical result is that some from a previous generation will cling to what they knew best. I have no problem with that. Hell- I love old stuff too. My house is FULL of vintage stuff. But what I do have a problem with is if someone then claims that whatever "thing" from their era is vastly superior to anything made or out there today. That's absolute hogwash, plain and simple. Besides- this post wasn't about whether newer or older cars were better or worse. It was what Lincoln needs to do NOW, and you know the answer isn't to suddenly start minting 1970's era cars. That ain't happening.
As far as small cars and comfort, some of you should check what the actual interior square footage measurements are on many small cars today compared to full sized cars of the past. You'd be amazed to find that in reality, some of today's smaller cars in some instances are not far off from having the same amount of interior space as those old cars. Simply put, the amount of improvement in structural integrity of the unibody frame enables more efficient use of space, and thus while some of those old cars might seem huge inside, a lot of the space was under-utilized and wasted. I've driven in my fair share of small cars and been perfectly fine on long trips. In fact, the most comfortable car I've driven to date was a Chevy Cruze.
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There hasn't been a Cadillac made since 1992 - or 1996 if you stretch the definition a little.
My thoughts exactly - from day one - on those ridiculous "letter" cars.
