U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Texas > Fort Worth
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Fort Worth natives do you consider Fort Worth to be a Western or Southern City?
Southern 7 33.33%
Western 14 66.67%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-01-2009, 01:04 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,365 posts, read 2,467,083 times
Reputation: 483

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypocore View Post
I've traveled through a great deal of Texas. We're proud to say we've got it all. Something most states simply cannot say with accuracy. Texas cannot be defined or singled out by these things alone.

We've got the grand Magnolias, the stately Pines, the towering Palm Trees and the desert Cactus. We've got beaches, canyons, mountains, deserts, swamps, mighty rivers and forests.
It's all out there and I've seen all the above in my travels.

Just as you cannot define Fort Worth by one description to those who want to move here, you cannot define Texas as all one type of state.

As far as the confederacy.....of course Texas was part of the confederacy, there is no one disputing that. It's one of the six flags of Texas, ya know. I actually love the fact that our Texas flag is the only one that can be flown at the same height as the US Flag!

While there were slaves owned here, as there were in most states of the south (note-not of the west) I've got plenty of relatives who picked cotton in the cotton fields, including my maternal grandmother and none of them were black. So, it wasn't just a certain skin color who worked those fields in Texas.

We're just not a one size fits all kind of state............
No offense to your relatives, but surely you're not comparing what they did to the horrors of slavery...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-01-2009, 01:20 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,365 posts, read 2,467,083 times
Reputation: 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008 View Post
I have lived in Fort Worth for almost 7 years and I would definitely say that Fort Worth feels (at least to me....and I've been to every Southern state with the exception of Alabama) to me to be quite Southern. Is North Texas like the Deep South? Of course not. I don't know anyone that would argue that, but Fort Worth (and definitely North Texas in general) have some very strong Southern traits.

Is there some western/frontier mixed in there? = of course. But I would argue (after living on the West Coast, East Coast, Florida (Lakeland area = relatively Southern), and I've spent time in undeniable Midwest states = Kansas, Nebraska, Indiana, Iowa, Missouri, Illinois) that Fort Worth is culturally much more connected with the South. I think the Census actually (I know, it's a shocker! LOL) properly places Oklahoma and Texas in a subregion of the South known as the West South Central (along with Arkansas and Louisiana). These states are different, but have more in common with each other culturally than grouping them in other regions such as the Southwest or Midwest.

I was born in raised in south-central Oklahoma and Fort Worth feels pretty much exactly like OK City and Tulsa and is not a lot different from Little Rock. I have family from Oklahoma, Texas, and Arkansas and culturally we have always considered all our kin/relatives Southern. Just my opinion based on my experience.
These states are commonly referred to as the South Central U.S., but I've never heard the term "West Central South". Especially as there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING West about Louisiana, Arkansas, or East Texas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-01-2009, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,403 posts, read 21,185,677 times
Reputation: 10279
I think the problem is that people try to classify Texas into one reigion. If you say Texas is Southern, I have friends in El Paso and Lubbock who would love to tell you how wrong you are. If you say Texas is Southwestern, my friends in Tyler would think you are nuts.

Also remember that cultural differences are blurred in the major cities. Honestly Dallas and Houston do not feel Southern to me. I never even hear accents in those cities. Therefore I think you have to take a step outside the cities and look at the smaller communities outside them to get a better classification. For this example Ill give a stab at DFW and Houston.

Outside Houston feels VERY cajun and southern. Lots of swamps, allegators, and dense trees. Things you would normally associate with being cajun and southern. Outside DFW (especially to the West) is prarie land and lots and lots of cattle, snakes, scorpions, and prickly pair cactii. To me this is nothing I could associate with the South at all. DFW feels like a combination of the Midwest and Southwest to me.

If were talking about Fort Worth specifically, even on a cultural level, it feels not Southern at all. When I think culturally southern, Im talking Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennesee, and Louisiana. These places are "gentele", slower paced, places. Fort Worth is a very ruggid town with a very ruggid history.

But again thats just me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-01-2009, 11:31 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,108,570 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAnative10 View Post
I think the problem is that people try to classify Texas into one reigion. If you say Texas is Southern, I have friends in El Paso and Lubbock who would love to tell you how wrong you are. If you say Texas is Southwestern, my friends in Tyler would think you are nuts.

Also remember that cultural differences are blurred in the major cities. Honestly Dallas and Houston do not feel Southern to me. I never even hear accents in those cities. Therefore I think you have to take a step outside the cities and look at the smaller communities outside them to get a better classification. For this example Ill give a stab at DFW and Houston.

Outside Houston feels VERY cajun and southern. Lots of swamps, allegators, and dense trees. Things you would normally associate with being cajun and southern. Outside DFW (especially to the West) is prarie land and lots and lots of cattle, snakes, scorpions, and prickly pair cactii. To me this is nothing I could associate with the South at all. DFW feels like a combination of the Midwest and Southwest to me.

If were talking about Fort Worth specifically, even on a cultural level, it feels not Southern at all. When I think culturally southern, Im talking Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennesee, and Louisiana. These places are "gentele", slower paced, places. Fort Worth is a very ruggid town with a very ruggid
history. But again thats just me.
I definitely see your point, and topographically, there is certainly very little "Southern" about that area west of I-35. However, as most of West Texas was originally settled by people from the southeast, it is that culture which has traditionally dominated. One sees it in the Southern Baptist Church, the general speech patterns, political history, folkways and customs, etc. Things which are virtually non-existent in the true SW and the Midwest (of which Texas is in no way part of). And perhaps most importantly, even most west Texans, in the most extensive sociological surveys I've seen, say they live in the South and choose "South" as their primary regional identity (not to the extent those east of the 100th parallel do, but a majority nonetheless. Of course the trans-pecos is an exception).

Most of west Texas -- and this includes Ft. Worth and even Lubbock -- fits best into a sub-region of the greater South which Raymond Gastil in his book "Cultural Regions of the United States" labeled the "western South." That is, a place where the basic historical and cultural elements of the South are heavily flavored with characteristics of the post-bellum western frontier. Making it very unique. And at least one of its differences with the true SW is summed up by Gastil below:

Unlike the Interior Southwest, neither aboriginal Indian nor Spanish-American culture played a central role in the definition of the area. The people of Texas are mostly from the Lower, Upper, and Mountain South and these Southerners easily outnumbered the Spanish speaking and Indian people even before the state joined the Union. Therefore, when we refer to a large Spanish-speaking population in Texas, we are primarily speaking of a relatively recent immigrant population, quite different from the core areas of the Interior Southwest." (Of course, El Paso I would for sure agree is better grouped with Interior SW).

Concerning Ft. Worth specifically, very true it is a rugged city with a rugged cowtown history. But it also contained a large cotton exchange and its settlers (at least orginally) were heavily from the older South looking to get a new start. That iconic cowboy and cattle image emerged mythic of course (with good reasons), but Ft. Worth contained/contains many elements brought by those southeasterns who made its formation possible. And cotton was still king in the area and the way most of those early Texas pioneers made their living.

I think the point of contention is that many tend to think of the Old South/Southeast as synonymous with South rather than a region which has always contained variations. Certainly, if the classic Deep South "moonlight and magnolias" imagery and lifestyle is the standard to which all is compared, then Ft. Worth doesn't fit the mold.

But on another plane, even the city's moniker "Where The West Begins" was NEVER intended to mean anything like "The South Stops here." (Anymore than St. Louis' "Gateway to the West" meant one was leaving the Midwest! LOL) No, it original meaning was illustrated by the Dallas counter-slogan: Which was "The East Stops Here". This is a very important distinction.

What the slogan really intended to impart -- and promote -- was Ft. Worth being a Boom Town entryway to a new frontier of the larger South itself. One of new opportunities and all -- the "Western South" if you will (to use that term again!) -- and distinguished from the "Old South" of cotton plantation country.

But oh well, to paraphrase you, this is all just IMHO. Much depends on ones own experience and the weight various aspects of history and culture are given. And in the end, there is no right or wrong answer, anyway. If there was, then regional/cultural geography wouldn't be a subject so endlessly debated and never settled!

Quote:
Mr. McCoy wrote: These states are commonly referred to as the South Central U.S., but I've never heard the term "West Central South". Especially as there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING West about Louisiana, Arkansas, or East Texas.
You are very correct on this point, however in this instance, the designation (which is "West South Central") is simply geographic, not historical nor cultural. Here is a map of the U.S. Census Bureau regions and sub-regions which delinates and labels it all:

http://www.census.gov/geo/www/us_regdiv.pdf
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-01-2009, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,403 posts, read 21,185,677 times
Reputation: 10279
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
I definitely see your point, and topographically, there is certainly very little "Southern" about that area west of I-35. However, as most of West Texas was originally settled by people from the southeast, it is that culture which has traditionally dominated. One sees it in the Southern Baptist Church, the general speech patterns, political history, folkways and customs, etc. Things which are virtually non-existent in the true SW and the Midwest (of which Texas is in no way part of). And perhaps most importantly, even most west Texans, in the most extensive sociological surveys I've seen, say they live in the South and choose "South" as their primary regional identity (not to the extent those east of the 100th parallel do, but a majority nonetheless. Of course the trans-pecos is an exception).

Most of west Texas -- and this includes Ft. Worth and even Lubbock -- fits best into a sub-region of the greater South which Raymond Gastil in his book "Cultural Regions of the United States" labeled the "western South." That is, a place where the basic historical and cultural elements of the South are heavily flavored with characteristics of the post-bellum western frontier. Making it very unique. And at least one of its differences with the true SW is summed up by Gastil below:

Unlike the Interior Southwest, neither aboriginal Indian nor Spanish-American culture played a central role in the definition of the area. The people of Texas are mostly from the Lower, Upper, and Mountain South and these Southerners easily outnumbered the Spanish speaking and Indian people even before the state joined the Union. Therefore, when we refer to a large Spanish-speaking population in Texas, we are primarily speaking of a relatively recent immigrant population, quite different from the core areas of the Interior Southwest." (Of course, El Paso I would for sure agree is better grouped with Interior SW).

Concerning Ft. Worth specifically, very true it is a rugged city with a rugged cowtown history. But it also contained a large cotton exchange and its settlers (at least orginally) were heavily from the older South looking to get a new start. That iconic cowboy and cattle image emerged mythic of course (with good reasons), but Ft. Worth contained/contains many elements brought by those southeasterns who made its formation possible. And cotton was still king in the area and the way most of those early Texas pioneers made their living.

I think the point of contention is that many tend to think of the Old South/Southeast as synonymous with South rather than a region which has always contained variations. Certainly, if the classic Deep South "moonlight and magnolias" imagery and lifestyle is the standard to which all is compared, then Ft. Worth doesn't fit the mold.

But on another plane, even the city's moniker "Where The West Begins" was NEVER intended to mean anything like "The South Stops here." (Anymore than St. Louis' "Gateway to the West" meant one was leaving the Midwest! LOL) No, it original meaning was illustrated by the Dallas counter-slogan: Which was "The East Stops Here". This is a very important distinction.

What the slogan really intended to impart -- and promote -- was Ft. Worth being a Boom Town entryway to a new frontier of the larger South itself. One of new opportunities and all -- the "Western South" if you will (to use that term again!) -- and distinguished from the "Old South" of cotton plantation country.

But oh well, to paraphrase you, this is all just IMHO. Much depends on ones own experience and the weight various aspects of history and culture are given. And in the end, there is no right or wrong answer, anyway. If there was, then regional/cultural geography wouldn't be a subject so endlessly debated and never settled!
I dont disagree with you. I have to think that places like DFW are a mix. Southern geographically, but not quite Southern Culturally, and not Southern Topographically. Alot of places in Texas dont really fit into any mold. Hell, I think thats why I like it here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-01-2009, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Funky Town, Texas
4,135 posts, read 7,188,135 times
Reputation: 2149
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAnative10 View Post
I dont disagree with you. I have to think that places like DFW are a mix. Southern geographically, but not quite Southern Culturally, and not Southern Topographically. Alot of places in Texas dont really fit into any mold. Hell, I think thats why I like it here.

East Fort Worth is very southern in nature.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-01-2009, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,403 posts, read 21,185,677 times
Reputation: 10279
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdogg817 View Post
East Fort Worth is very southern in nature.
I havent really been out east. Spent lots of time Downtown, the TCU area, and the West and North Sides of Fort Worth. I dont think they are Southen in nature, but thats just my opinion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-01-2009, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Texas
1,365 posts, read 2,467,083 times
Reputation: 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAnative10 View Post
I think the problem is that people try to classify Texas into one reigion. If you say Texas is Southern, I have friends in El Paso and Lubbock who would love to tell you how wrong you are. If you say Texas is Southwestern, my friends in Tyler would think you are nuts.
I agree with this. Just because Texas is one state doesn't mean it necessarily has to be in one region. Part of it is in the South, part of it is in the Southwest. Simple as that.

Quote:
Also remember that cultural differences are blurred in the major cities. Honestly Dallas and Houston do not feel Southern to me. I never even hear accents in those cities. Therefore I think you have to take a step outside the cities and look at the smaller communities outside them to get a better classification. For this example Ill give a stab at DFW and Houston.

Outside Houston feels VERY cajun and southern. Lots of swamps, allegators, and dense trees. Things you would normally associate with being cajun and southern. Outside DFW (especially to the West) is prarie land and lots and lots of cattle, snakes, scorpions, and prickly pair cactii. To me this is nothing I could associate with the South at all. DFW feels like a combination of the Midwest and Southwest to me.
The same things are said about Atlanta. But what people have to understand is that if you're in neighborhoods or areas where there will be a great deal of transplants and other cultures, it's going to be hard to see what's so Southern about Houston and Dallas. But if you go into areas (sometimes lower or middle income areas) where there are a great deal of people who have roots in the city you will definitely know you're in the South.

And the prickly pear cacti you're talking about can even found in southeast Texas. They're probably just planted.

Quote:
If were talking about Fort Worth specifically, even on a cultural level, it feels not Southern at all. When I think culturally southern, Im talking Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennesee, and Louisiana. These places are "gentele", slower paced, places. Fort Worth is a very ruggid town with a very ruggid history.

But again thats just me.
Fort Worth is somewhat of a transitional city, but definitely southern. Really no place in Texas is "gentele" because the culture of this state has always had a more rugged twist than the rest of the south.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-01-2009, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,403 posts, read 21,185,677 times
Reputation: 10279
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMcCoySays View Post

And the prickly pear cacti you're talking about can even found in southeast Texas. They're probably just planted.
I get the reference from the area North of Fort Worth.

If travel between Wichita Falls and Fort Worth on 287, you see a whole bunch of them. Im not sure if they are native, or if they are planted for show, but I dont know if anyone would simply plant them in a big field that nobody owns.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-01-2009, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Where I live.
9,191 posts, read 19,087,630 times
Reputation: 4807
Most of west Texas -- and this includes Ft. Worth and even Lubbock -- fits best into a sub-region of the greater South which Raymond Gastil in his book "Cultural Regions of the United States" labeled the "western South." That is, a place where the basic historical and cultural elements of the South are heavily flavored with characteristics of the post-bellum western frontier. Making it very unique. And at least one of its differences with the true SW is summed up by Gastil below:

*Choking*........TR, please tell me that you don't mean that Fort Worth is in West Texas....Lubbock, I'd agree, but FW is definitely north Texas!

Or did I just completely misunderstand..??
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Texas > Fort Worth
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top