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You cannot have read my posts carefully. I have been to Whole Foods 3 times in the past, say, 10 months or year. We usually go to our large supermarket (Waldbaum's) or Key Food. Ordinary very large supermarkets.
I love Whole Foods for the organic produce, the leafy green organic produce, which Key and Waldbaum's do not even carry. Such as organic kale and organic swiss chard.
I am not as dumb as you make it out to be, and it's not very in between the lines.
You think I don't know how to compare brands or don't recognize it if the same brand is at WF as at the local big supermarket? Gee, thanks!
And you don't even bother to acknowledge how important it is to grow organic foods. You claim there is no science behind it. Hooey. Show me. I will show you the research behind the usefulness of growing organic foods.
If you wish to take my post as a personal attack, you are wrong. I will repeat that price points in stores are part of successful retailing. Stores that carry specialty items charge more for them. It doesn't matter if it is food or jewelry or cars or clothes. I said that what brought that point home FOR ME was the mushroom example. I've used it in posts many times before as an illustration. If anyone is questioning intelligence, it is the retailers who overcharge customers. For me, the mushroom example made me rethink what real value in shopping I was getting at upscale stores.
I did not claim that there was no science behind organic foods, I stated that you had made a choice, and the scientific and ethical considerations - from the retailer's point of view - are secondary to making a profit and being able to stay in business.
In some items, organic may be better, in some there is little difference, and in some it can be worse. My grandfather owned and ran a successful old style New England dairy farm, which I visited many times as a child. I've grown gardens in Vermont, Florida and Alabama, done my own preserving and freezing. I did backyard chickens for a while. I've seen the farming operations around here. My DW is master gardener in two states. As I mentioned before, I also worked in a health food store. I'm not a newbie to the field.
I've seen some ratty looking organic carrots that couldn't hold a candle to those I grew in cow poop. The label isn't an automatic gold standard to me. I've seen some really good organic greens and I've also seen them notched out from insect infestations. I've done a single spray of sevin on squash stalks to stop the borers and had wonderful squash that didn't quite meet the organic standard. It was the only way I could successfully get home grown squash. If you are willing to support the organic model, even though the cost is more, great. If the price differential isn't too great, I'll sometimes go that way as well. However, when a mainstream market like Publix charges twice as much as a dollar store for the same product (organic or not), I'm going to actively seek out the dollar stores for bargains.
If you wish to take my post as a personal attack, you are wrong. I will repeat that price points in stores are part of successful retailing. Stores that carry specialty items charge more for them. It doesn't matter if it is food or jewelry or cars or clothes. I said that what brought that point home FOR ME was the mushroom example. I've used it in posts many times before as an illustration. If anyone is questioning intelligence, it is the retailers who overcharge customers. For me, the mushroom example made me rethink what real value in shopping I was getting at upscale stores.
I did not claim that there was no science behind organic foods, I stated that you had made a choice, and the scientific and ethical considerations - from the retailer's point of view - are secondary to making a profit and being able to stay in business.
In some items, organic may be better, in some there is little difference, and in some it can be worse. My grandfather owned and ran a successful old style New England dairy farm, which I visited many times as a child. I've grown gardens in Vermont, Florida and Alabama, done my own preserving and freezing. I did backyard chickens for a while. I've seen the farming operations around here. My DW is master gardener in two states. As I mentioned before, I also worked in a health food store. I'm not a newbie to the field.
I've seen some ratty looking organic carrots that couldn't hold a candle to those I grew in cow poop. The label isn't an automatic gold standard to me. I've seen some really good organic greens and I've also seen them notched out from insect infestations. I've done a single spray of sevin on squash stalks to stop the borers and had wonderful squash that didn't quite meet the organic standard. It was the only way I could successfully get home grown squash. If you are willing to support the organic model, even though the cost is more, great. If the price differential isn't too great, I'll sometimes go that way as well. However, when a mainstream market like Publix charges twice as much as a dollar store for the same product (organic or not), I'm going to actively seek out the dollar stores for bargains.
I am not taking your post as a personal attack. I am taking your post as biased and a not as a response to what I am saying. And you are also dumbing down your remarks as if the writer doesn't know about what you say. That is the problem. Good for you - I guess I am able to observe what you did not re: prices.
"The purpose of that expensive campaign is largely to make profits, over and above any ethical or scientific considerations.
"
Well, of course what you wrote above is true but you see it doesn't mean that I am not going to buy organic in the only store that sells certain kinds of organic produce. (WF) I go there when I can and am thrilled to find organic kale, etc. there.
I am not so much on a campaign to worry about the profit motives of Whole Foods, etc. I don't think I am going to be able to do much about it, do you?
You speak about which produce (organic) is worth it and which is not, but I wrote that I am doing this for the planet, for future generations, supporting organic farming methods, not for myself or my husband. We are older people and don't worry about it for ourselves.
But I was thrilled to see the high quality of the organic produce at WF and wish I lived near them.
I am an experienced cook and shopper and can see the difference between a healthy looking vegetable, organic or not, and one that is not. Again, please don't dumb me down. I don't require that approach.
NYC is an expensive area, but also a high-income area. If you lived and worked from age 25 to 60-something in NYC or another high-income area, you should have enough set aside to be able to enjoy living in such a place now as well. But it will still be expensive no matter what. And all organic food still comes at a premium due to the economies of scale that they don't enjoy and the cost-saving land and animal abuses that they don't employ. You are exactly right that the early-adopters of today will have to pay a little more to be sure that safe, organic food industries can grow and prosper and endure.
We live in queens in nyc and had a house in the pocono mountains in pa up until last summer when we sold it.
We saw about a 15-20% difference in costs.
Considering one is rural and one is in nyc there was not such a big difference in the mix of goods we buy.
To tell you the truth it costs us less in ny than pa since we started using fresh directs home delivery service.
We value our free time greatly and we don't want to loose two hours on the weekends fiddling with groceries.
They deliver at 6:30am on sunday and we are done.
Not having me roaming the store loading up the cart with the junk i like saves us more than even what it cost us in pa.
I am not so much on a campaign to worry about the profit motives of Whole Foods, etc. I don't think I am going to be able to do much about it, do you?
Actually, yes I think that you can. Consumers do hold tremendous power in the marketplace if it is wielded somewhat consistently and properly. You may not directly affect the motives within a boardroom, but buying patterns do affect projections on growth and product selection.
One of the aspects of WF that I have found troubling is that it has shifted the balance of power in the health food store arena. I remember the days when Erwhon and others would run a truck up to Vermont from Boston to supply the health food stores. The cost of transportation and the required markups made items expensive, but there was a regular niche for local growers. Matching or beating the cost of goods to the retailer was still within the realm of possibility for locals who wished to sell direct to small health food stores. That benefited the local economy and built a core of people interested in fresh good food that neighbors grew. WF saw the potential for profit and changed the growing of products into a second tier agribusiness, where size was the only way to supply the quantities needed by them and the smaller suppliers were effectively driven out, and co-ops sent into slumps.
When WF built in south Florida, one of our favored natural food stores was forced out of business and I'm sure others were negatively impacted as well. Only one survived by investing, moving and taking the chance on quadrupling in size and going after the mail order market as well as locals. After the usual period when WF pricing was comparable or a little better than local stores, the consumers had been hooked, and pricing was raised to levels I found to be close to usurious.
How can you affect the motives of WF? By preferring to buy in the mom-n-pop places or co-ops and encouraging others to do so as well. When grocery companies get large, they are actually as much distribution companies as retailers, and can make decent profits by supplying smaller stores alone. That brings back a natural price balance, where local farmers are competing on a more level playing field.
"You speak about which produce (organic) is worth it and which is not, but I wrote that I am doing this for the planet, for future generations, supporting organic farming methods, not for myself or my husband. We are older people and don't worry about it for ourselves."
Again, that is a personal decision for you, and if you feel strongly and want to do that, great. I remind you know that the topic of this forum is FRUGAL, and my responses are based upon a frugal mindset. Since you are interested in organics, it probably would be a good idea to wander down to the "about the forum" section and request a new sub-forum for organic foods and growing them under the gardening, green, or food and drink forum. I'm sure others would be interested as well.
But I was thrilled to see the high quality of the organic produce at WF and wish I lived near them.
During the honeymoon period when WF was "courting" south Florida shoppers, it was a treat to shop there, but when prices went out-of-reach, we had to limit shopping there to an extremely limited selection of products not easily found elsewhere. If you have a frugal mindset at all, I suspect you would find that to be your experience as well.
I wrote "food shopping in NYC" and no one is biting (bad pun).
So, I will write this: Am I the only one who is floored by the cost of groceries in NYC? My husband and I are well over 60 so we don't do BJ's and Costco, etc. and don't believe in patronizing Walmart (let's not go there).
So, we do our best buying sale things and regular produce at our local supermarkets: Waldbaum's, Key Food and occasionally Fairway. We go to Whole Foods but not often - it is miles away, a good 20 to 30 minute drive.
OK, I am well aware that Key and Fairway are not cheap, but we buy a lot of organic produce. Not all, but much. We don't do it to save ourselves - we are older now - we do it to save the next generation because no fertilizers or pesticides are polluting the planet when organic food is grown. Or, at least, a heck of a lot less. We want to encourage the use of organic farming methods. This is what I call being frugal in the long run. I don't feel like saving money at the expense of the next generation.
Back to my point: We cook from scratch, use beans, fresh and (sale priced) frozen, both organic and not, locally made breads (organic and not), nuts, seeds, fruit, fish and a little bit of chicken. Certified Humane eggs (never buy anything but - the other chicken farms are much crueler to hens.) The Certified Humane eggs are at least a buck more a dozen, sometimes 2 bucks more per dozen, but geez, we only use maybe one to 2 dozen (and that is a lot!) per month.
We do buy organic milk (around 4 to 5 bucks a half gallon) and try to buy organic sour cream which we use lightly. Organic beans always, organic brown rice, etc.
Now, what I want to know is this: Why does it cost us, no matter what, at least $20 per day for 2 with stuff like paper goods and dishwasher detergent included? We use Small Steps and other environmentally safe brands.
Maybe I am answering my own question: We buy green, humane (Murray's chicken, far more humane) and organic.
So our cost for food is around $600 a month for two, and, to be honest, it is often more like $700.
you are unhappy about the price of food and yet you spend more money on more expensive food that offers no additional value to you. if you want to save the world, suck it up and throw away your money for clever marketing.
I live in NYC but do not purchase organic food. We also cook at home regularly but also get takeout or visit a restaurant regularly.
(1) Where do you live within NYC?
(2) What is "high" to you? My husband and I do eat out but we have a monthly budget of $300/month on groceries and that includes plenty of meat, household items (paper towels/toilet paper/toiletries) and also food/litter for our cats. This also includes beer, wine and occasionally, any other type of alcohol. Once in awhile we go over the budget but not often. Going out to eat is a separate budget item for us. I see you say you spend around $600-$700/month but what dollar amount would you actually consider high ($500+? $400+?) and where would you like to be?
I will tell you that amongst our friends, we are probably the only people who actually sale shop. (I'm in my 20s.) We're probably the only people I know who also have a budget and because I'm insane, I account for literally every dollar we spend. I keep our food bill down by: (1) Knowing the regular cost of items and stocking up on items when they are on sale. (2) I have a Pathmark within driving distance and a Key Food within walking distance and between these two stores, I find that I can get things decently priced and much cheaper than places like Whole Foods.
If we stick to our budget for groceries, household items, cat stuff and eating out, it's $550/month. We'll probably cut down on our eating out stuff for a little while, so it'll be closer to $400-$450 for everything.
We live in queens in nyc and had a house in the pocono mountains in pa up until last summer when we sold it.
We saw about a 15-20% difference in costs.
Considering one is rural and one is in nyc there was not such a big difference in the mix of goods we buy.
To tell you the truth it costs us less in ny than pa since we started using fresh directs home delivery service.
We value our free time greatly and we don't want to loose two hours on the weekends fiddling with groceries.
They deliver at 6:30am on sunday and we are done.
Not having me roaming the store loading up the cart with the junk i like saves us more than even what it cost us in pa.
It's so true. Time is money. We are retired so we can do it by ourselves and are pretty disciplined at not buying junk although I am weak on ice cream and some cookies. We cook from scratch. Mostly.
I am not so much on a campaign to worry about the profit motives of Whole Foods, etc. I don't think I am going to be able to do much about it, do you?
Actually, yes I think that you can. Consumers do hold tremendous power in the marketplace if it is wielded somewhat consistently and properly. You may not directly affect the motives within a boardroom, but buying patterns do affect projections on growth and product selection.
One of the aspects of WF that I have found troubling is that it has shifted the balance of power in the health food store arena. I remember the days when Erwhon and others would run a truck up to Vermont from Boston to supply the health food stores. The cost of transportation and the required markups made items expensive, but there was a regular niche for local growers. Matching or beating the cost of goods to the retailer was still within the realm of possibility for locals who wished to sell direct to small health food stores. That benefited the local economy and built a core of people interested in fresh good food that neighbors grew. WF saw the potential for profit and changed the growing of products into a second tier agribusiness, where size was the only way to supply the quantities needed by them and the smaller suppliers were effectively driven out, and co-ops sent into slumps.
When WF built in south Florida, one of our favored natural food stores was forced out of business and I'm sure others were negatively impacted as well. Only one survived by investing, moving and taking the chance on quadrupling in size and going after the mail order market as well as locals. After the usual period when WF pricing was comparable or a little better than local stores, the consumers had been hooked, and pricing was raised to levels I found to be close to usurious.
How can you affect the motives of WF? By preferring to buy in the mom-n-pop places or co-ops and encouraging others to do so as well. When grocery companies get large, they are actually as much distribution companies as retailers, and can make decent profits by supplying smaller stores alone. That brings back a natural price balance, where local farmers are competing on a more level playing field.
"You speak about which produce (organic) is worth it and which is not, but I wrote that I am doing this for the planet, for future generations, supporting organic farming methods, not for myself or my husband. We are older people and don't worry about it for ourselves."
Again, that is a personal decision for you, and if you feel strongly and want to do that, great. I remind you know that the topic of this forum is FRUGAL, and my responses are based upon a frugal mindset. Since you are interested in organics, it probably would be a good idea to wander down to the "about the forum" section and request a new sub-forum for organic foods and growing them under the gardening, green, or food and drink forum. I'm sure others would be interested as well.
But I was thrilled to see the high quality of the organic produce at WF and wish I lived near them.
During the honeymoon period when WF was "courting" south Florida shoppers, it was a treat to shop there, but when prices went out-of-reach, we had to limit shopping there to an extremely limited selection of products not easily found elsewhere. If you have a frugal mindset at all, I suspect you would find that to be your experience as well.
I used to live in metro Boston and near Cambridge and the very early organic food stores as well. I know a lot about the co-ops. We don't live near any co-ops. Or Mom and Pop stores that have organics.
I think a lot of people think that when I say I live in NYC they think Manhattan or fashionable Brooklyn. We are nowhere near these places, miles away and 6 miles from the last subway stop. But we live right in NYC.
I know it is a frugal section and there is no reason I should do as you suggest: Go elsewhere. I am talking about the cost of food and if it is organic that is my right to discuss that too. Here.
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