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Old 09-14-2009, 03:38 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 16,969,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
Me either. The point is the same with a Mercedes, BMW, or Cadillac, too.
These are a bit different, Mercedes and BMW don't make lower end versions on the same frame, etc. I'm not sure what a Mercedes offers beyond say a loaded up VW, but I also have not looked into it either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I think your priorities will change when you realize that you can't stay twenthysomething, ten-feet tall, and bulletproof forever.
Well considering I'm not 20s-something I'd hope I realize that. My priorities are not going to change and even if they did its not going to matter as I'm already saving much less than required for "retirement".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I use it because retirement is something that nearly everyone professes to want, yet so many lament not having enough to do it when/how they'd like.
I know quite a few people in their 50's and 60's that have little desire to retire. Hell, I know a few people in their 80's and 90's that have yet to retire (sure, they may collect a pension, social security, etc but they still work full time). Its not that uncommon to be indifferent towards the traditional notion of retirement.

Regarding the neighbors, it all depends on what they value. Retiring before they are 60 may just not be very important to them.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:36 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 16,969,159 times
Reputation: 4304
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
Yes, you want to be obstinate and not believe it. But it only takes 2-4 minutes per side to cook a burger.
Look, I'm not going to argue about whether you can make a hamburger when all things consider in 10 minutes or not. If you can, great. I know I can't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
Saving paper does benefit you personally, but not directly. Paper comes from wood/trees. Wood is a limited resource. The cost of lumber and other wood-based products is directly related to the supply and therefore the cost of wood.
The benefit I receive indirectly is unmeasurable and that is just the point. Any noticeable savings requires a sufficient number of people to do it.

This is a classic case of an "prisoner's dilemma" style game. Imagine a world where everyone conserves paper, now say an evil doer comes about that he does not save paper. This person now 1.) receives the benefit of others conserving paper, 2.) Does not have to realize the costs for those benefits. This individual is now better off than everyone else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
What kind of "fresh" ice cream are you getting in a shop that's any better than the Turkey Hill ice cream I bought at the supermarket? Turkey Hill is not "cheap", it's a good quality ice cream. It was on sale when I bought it and I got a premium ice cream at a low price. You're calling it "preservative-packed" without even knowing what you're talking about.
I'm calling it that precisely because I know what I'm talking about. Have you ever tried to make ice cream? Its rather simple, its just cream, milk and sugar and whatever you want to use for flavor. Now look at that Turkey Hill, wait a lot more than cream, milk and sugar huh? Its filled with preservatives, artificial flavoring, and agents to keep its texture good while frozen. Real freshly made ice cream does not freeze well.

Fresh ice cream is absolutely delicious and does not compare at all to the crap at the grocery store. No idea why you think Turkey Hill is premium ice cream either, its just your standard ice cream not the cheapest and by no means premium.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
There is no SIGNIFICANT change in standard of living in any example I gave.
Sure there is you are 1.) making your own food instead of purchasing it, regardless of how long it takes you that requires work, 2.) carrying around a thing of ice cream when you go out.

If I did this I would be doing something I don't enjoy (making a hamburger, which I find boring) and eating chemical ice cream out of a plastic container. Now if it makes you happy, great.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
My actions are indeed noticeable when combined with the actions of others......
This is just my point, its the collective action of many that produces a noticeable result. Your individual contribution is almost nil.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
Issues regarding pollution are not tricky; we pollute and our entire society's quality of life is diminished.
Huh? This is not what is tricky about it, what is tricky is reducing pollution. If everyone acts selfishly (and most will), everyone will be the "evil doer" from above. Yet, if everyone is an evil doer every is worse off. But if the majority are not evil doers, then any evil doers can benefit by not contributing.

As you mentioned you can try to charge for polluting, but that can be problematic on many levels.

But in the mean time, it makes little sense (excluding moral reasons) from the individual perspective to conserve paper or anything else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
See? It's right in the definition. PRUDENTLY saving or sparing. NOT WASTEFUL.
I don't think the word is used in the language in the sense that you are trying to use it, what you are talking about is essentially being "green" or whatever else you want to call it. You can try to argue that "well being frugal means you should do those things too", but if you say "frugal" to someone these sorts of things are not going to come to mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
You seem to be afraid that exploring options in frugality will lead you to being an irrational skinflint...
I'm afraid of no such thing, rather I'm not interested in trying to analyze my life to save pennies. My time is much better spent thinking about the pounds and let the pennies fall where they may.

Regarding frugal vs cheap, I think its just a difference in degree.
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:54 AM
 
5,748 posts, read 10,502,858 times
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While green living, simple living, and frugality are often lumped together, they are not the same thing. Many people, though, find that they are very complementary lifestyles.
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:59 AM
 
Location: SoCal desert
8,095 posts, read 12,740,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
But if you have the money and want the "newest and best" things why not purchase them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Personally, retirement means rather little to me, I don't even really understand the concept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
(401K's) There are incentives to create them usually in the form of matching programs, etc. I have one and I never contributed a dime of my own money to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
My priorities are not going to change and even if they did its not going to matter as I'm already saving much less than required for "retirement"


Taking just a few examples of your quotes, I just have one question.

What in the world are you even reading the Frugal Forum for?
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Old 09-14-2009, 10:41 AM
 
5,748 posts, read 10,502,858 times
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Good question! Perhaps he was feeling contrary and wanted to ruffle a few feathers.
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Old 09-14-2009, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,091 posts, read 10,487,344 times
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Frugal has become the new buzzword after the economic crisis, and has expanded so much in what people think it applies to that it really doesn't mean the same things people attach to it any more. What it means to me is to live within your means and make all savings efficiently, and to save a significant portion of your income. I've always done it because it's how I grew up, I love watching the balances in my accounts go up then finding room for crap in my apartment (it's not that big), and I hate shopping with a passion.

The problem is that it is now the "in" thing to be frugal and green, and people have assigned what they do to that definition so they can be in the popular crowd. It's now such a broad moniker that I have seen extremes from people who save 5% on a Coach bags to be frugal in the luxury purchases to people who eat out of dumpsters or spend amazing amounts of time to save a buck.
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Old 09-14-2009, 12:26 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,085 posts, read 7,447,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Look, I'm not going to argue about whether you can make a hamburger when all things consider in 10 minutes or not. If you can, great. I know I can't.
You already did argue about it with me. I, like the vast majority of people, can make a burger in under 10 minutes. If you can't, then you are slower than most people, probably because you are doing something wrong. It's probably that you don't make use of your time properly, and that's probably because you don't take any of it seriously.

Anyway, every link I look at says it takes 2 to 4 minutes per side to cook a burger. I posted one of those links for you. I guess it takes you 20 minutes to make a burger patty. Did it ever occur to you that if you did it more often you could cut that time down to about a minute, like most normal people???

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
The benefit I receive indirectly is unmeasurable and that is just the point. Any noticeable savings requires a sufficient number of people to do it.
That's your opinion. The way our society is structured enables people like you to think we each live in a vacuum where those things that don't directly affect us can be simply ignored. The fact remains what we do as individuals adds up to cumulative effects on our entire society/ies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
This is a classic case of an "prisoner's dilemma" style game. Imagine a world where everyone conserves paper, now say an evil doer comes about that he does not save paper. This person now 1.) receives the benefit of others conserving paper, 2.) Does not have to realize the costs for those benefits. This individual is now better off than everyone else.
Again you miss the point. Where frugal people are concerned, it is not about what's fair or not fair. We recognize that some of the results of our actions are not always fair. We recognize that life isn't always fair.

We hold to the belief that by living simpler lives we reduce waste and costs and therefore live a more full life. The effects are both direct and indirect.

You seem to want to make us (frugal people) into some sort of conflation of cheapskates and environmentalists. We are not. You make the mistake of noting ideas, habits, concerns, and practices we share with those types of people while ignoring the differences between us and them. You also (intentionally, it seems) ignore our motivations and attribute the motivations of cheapskates and environmentalists to us. You have no idea how off base you are (or you do know but are just trolling).

Let me clarify it for you:
  • Cheapskates care only about saving money. They will waste other resources and spend more on non-monetary costs just to save more money. They are the type who will spend hours and waste non-monetary resources to save a dollar. They put money ahead of themselves and other people.
  • Environmentalists (extreme ones in particular care more for the environment/planet than other resources or costs like money or time. They will prefer to sacrifice money, people's time, etc. in order to improve the planet. They put the planet ahead of themselves and other people.
  • Frugal people care recognize that everything has a cost, not just monetarily, but in many other ways: time, resources, pleasure/enjoyment, environment, health, etc. Frugal people strive to put themselves and others on equal footing, and to put people ahead of the other concerns. We recognize that everything we do has a cost or costs associated with it, and we strive to get the most for the least amount of cost. Because some costs are personal (i.e. pleasure/enjoyment), there is a degree of individual leeway given to each individual to determine for him/herself what is the best balance of cost vs. benefit (in other words, what is frugal).

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I'm calling it that precisely because I know what I'm talking about. Have you ever tried to make ice cream? Its rather simple, its just cream, milk and sugar and whatever you want to use for flavor. Now look at that Turkey Hill, wait a lot more than cream, milk and sugar huh? Its filled with preservatives, artificial flavoring, and agents to keep its texture good while frozen. Real freshly made ice cream does not freeze well.

Fresh ice cream is absolutely delicious and does not compare at all to the crap at the grocery store. No idea why you think Turkey Hill is premium ice cream either, its just your standard ice cream not the cheapest and by no means premium.
Where are you buying this "fresh ice cream"? I don't have too many options nearby - Ben & Jerry's, Haagen Dazs (sp?), Dairy Queen, Carvel, a couple mom & pops... Which of these makes "fresh ice cream" as you describe, with absolutely no additives which doesn't freeze??? Do you have a name of a place??? Or is it another one of your myths, like the "I can't make a burger in less than 30 minutes" myth, that you fabricate just to be a troll?

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Sure there is you are 1.) making your own food instead of purchasing it, regardless of how long it takes you that requires work, 2.) carrying around a thing of ice cream when you go out.
No, not "regardless of how long it takes"... How long it takes IS regarded, it is an important consideration. Earlier you insisted it was, now that I've shown the time advantage of making burgers at home you say "regardless of how long it takes". Further proof that you have no interest in facts, but rather in simply winning your trollish argument.

As for it requiring "work", yes. It's also "work" to stand in line in a fast-food joint, to sit in traffic getting there, to carry my tray or bag of food from the counter to the table, etc. If you want to be so petty about defining "work" in order to imply that making a patty out of beef and putting it in a frying pan is some sort of difficult job, then that cuts both ways, and all the walking, line standing, driving, etc. involved in getting fast food is also "work".

As for carrying around a thing of ice cream, all I did was put it in a cup, then in a larger cup with ice cubes surrounding the smaller cup, then I put it in my car's cupholder and it stayed cold (a little melted, but I always wait for it to melt a little before eating it anyway) until I ate it later. I didn't walk around carrying it - I carried it from my home to the driveway and into my car where I put it down. Again, you're blowing up a little thing to make it sound like a difficult chore because your troll argument has lost steam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
If I did this I would be doing something I don't enjoy (making a hamburger, which I find boring) and eating chemical ice cream out of a plastic container. Now if it makes you happy, great.
And if I went to get fast food I'd be doing something I don't enjoy - driving through traffic, dealing with people's brats, standing in line, waiting for the food, sitting at a crappy table with no TV to watch while I eat, etc. As for the ice cream, how is what I had "chemical ice cream" while what I could get out at an ice cream parlor isn't??? You keep insisiting that this is the case, yet you can't prove it. Are you completely ignorant, or just a liar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
This is just my point, its the collective action of many that produces a noticeable result. Your individual contribution is almost nil.
So you're saying that my individual contribution doesn't contribute to a collective action of those who do the same? By that mentality, why donate a few dollars to a charity, that's almost nil compared to the collective donations. Why vote? Your vote is almost nil compared to the collective votes. That's just stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Huh? This is not what is tricky about it, what is tricky is reducing pollution. If everyone acts selfishly (and most will), everyone will be the "evil doer" from above. Yet, if everyone is an evil doer every is worse off. But if the majority are not evil doers, then any evil doers can benefit by not contributing.
Wrong again. What's tricky is not reducing pollution. That's easy. Start charging people for their waste in a more itemized fashion. Charge people more to throw away batteries than banana peels. Itemize people's garbage, recycle and reuse more of what can be recycled and reused.

What's tricky is getting people to go along with it. First you have corporate interests who benefit from waste (consumerism, which is our economy, thrives on waste), then you have the brainwashed masses who, like you, are tricked into believing that money is what matters, not waste. What's tricky is to get someone like you to stop being obstinate and irrational enough to agree to a collective effort to properly address the costs of waste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
As you mentioned you can try to charge for polluting, but that can be problematic on many levels.
Only problematic because of selfish, lazy, greed-driven attitudes like yours. You, and those who think as you do, feel threatened by this because you know that it would inhibit your lazy, self-centered lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
But in the mean time, it makes little sense (excluding moral reasons) from the individual perspective to conserve paper or anything else.
Well, moral reasons are very strong, for me, as a Christian. What is your morality? What morals do you have which let you put yourself above everyone else with no qualms? Let me guess... you hate religion???

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I don't think the word is used in the language in the sense that you are trying to use it, what you are talking about is essentially being "green" or whatever else you want to call it. You can try to argue that "well being frugal means you should do those things too", but if you say "frugal" to someone these sorts of things are not going to come to mind.
I'll agree that a lot of cheapskates and some environmentalists fancy themselves as "frugal" and therefore misuse the word to describe themselves. And they get away with it because non-frugal people can't discern between a cheapskate and a frugal person. People like you either choose not to make the distinction or lack the ability to make a distinction.

I provided the dictionary definition, and it is right in line with what I have been presenting to you as far as what "frugal" means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I'm afraid of no such thing, rather I'm not interested in trying to analyze my life to save pennies. My time is much better spent thinking about the pounds and let the pennies fall where they may.
Again, you allude to being cheap; cheapskates are penny-wise and pound-foolish. Frugal people strive to be as prudent with their pennies as well as their pounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Regarding frugal vs cheap, I think its just a difference in degree.
Yes, you've made it clear that that's what you think. The only problem is that you have simply presented this opinion of yours over and over with absolutely no rational argument to support it. And it shows.
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Old 09-14-2009, 12:31 PM
 
5,748 posts, read 10,502,858 times
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Quote:
Where are you buying this "fresh ice cream"? I don't have too many options nearby - Ben & Jerry's, Haagen Dazs (sp?), Dairy Queen, Carvel, a couple mom & pops... Which of these makes "fresh ice cream" as you describe, with absolutely no additives which doesn't freeze??? Do you have a name of a place??? Or is it another one of your myths, like the "I can't make a burger in less than 30 minutes" myth, that you fabricate just to be a troll?
Totally off-topic, but if user_id is making ice cream at home from scratch, I have a hard time believing he can't make a burger in under twenty minutes.

Wait, what are we discussing again?
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Old 09-14-2009, 12:46 PM
 
25,809 posts, read 49,697,815 times
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Sometimes it's hard to by frugal...

I have almost zero trash at home... often nothing in the trash can. Most I either compost or recycle and I pay for garbage collection at work so that's always available on the rare occasion should I need it...

What is so frustrating is my City has a Mandatory Garbage Ordinance that requires every residential property to have weekly trash service... if you use it or not If you don't pay, the city pays waste management and puts a lien on your home... what a great deal... the government as bill collector and guarantor for private enterprise.

Kind of takes the incentive away from being careful with trash because how wasteful is it to pay for garbage service and then not use it
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Old 09-14-2009, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,091 posts, read 10,487,344 times
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You don't have to be frugal, even though it is the "In" thing. Use your money and your time how you see fit, what is efficient is different to people. Take care of your own finances and let others take care of their own, and if it isn't working for you then change it.
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