Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Garden
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-07-2013, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
4,876 posts, read 4,172,655 times
Reputation: 1908

Advertisements

Yes, well I would say that given the relatively mild climate of Arkansas(even the Ozarks), I would say you are towards the southern edge of the successful growing range of the Colorado Blue Spruce, but your neighbor could be right in saying your zone is a little bit too warm for this spruce tree. But I know they are frequently planted in areas north of you and are pretty frequent where I live, Indianapolis area, Indiana Hope I helped
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-07-2013, 07:45 PM
 
3,433 posts, read 5,718,689 times
Reputation: 5470
I'll keep the trees watered and my fingers crossed.

Every morning when I look at those three trees ( about 28 inches tall) I envision what they will look like when about 8-10 ft tall.

I am 68, so I hope I'm still around to see them then.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 08:00 PM
 
Location: The Woods
18,332 posts, read 26,357,163 times
Reputation: 11328
Spruce trees aren't really warm climate trees in general. You can get them to grow in warm areas but it will always be more vulnerable to problems because it will be somewhat stressed out by the conditions. Keeping it watered in the extremely hot parts of the summer should help.

Several types of pines should grow quite well there, depending on the soil conditions and other factors.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 09:17 PM
 
3,433 posts, read 5,718,689 times
Reputation: 5470
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinbandonoregon View Post
interesting about not seeing lots of pines in your part of Arkansas---the state tree is loblolly pine/pinus taeda so would assume that kind of pine at least is common and important in your state. might want to check with your forestry dept. or county extension agent for suggestions for which pines might do well in your area. FWIW, according to the "southern living garden book" several kinds of spruce apparently can be planted in parts of Arkansas (which seems to be listed as the "upper" and "middle south" according to their classifications) along with the blue type (picea pungens "glauca") including p. orientalis/oriental spruce, omorika/Serbian spruce, and glauca/white spruce among others. possibly all would benefit from being planted in an area with good drainage (soils that are warm and moist in the summer may cause lethal root rots), a cooler microclimate--north or east exposure, and mulching around the base to keep the roots cool and suppress competing vegetation (and keep lawn mowers away, LOL). hope this is of some interest and help. good luck.

You could be right about pines down here.
I really should do more research because perhaps the numerous trees I presumed to be cedars, are really a type of pine.

Those are numerous around me and I don't like them because they always look" scraggly "

A few miles from me I did come across some tall pine trees I like.
Those have very long needles and those trees grow quite tall.

I will brush up on my tree identification because the trees here are different ( except the oaks which are plentiful here and in MN )
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
4,876 posts, read 4,172,655 times
Reputation: 1908
Wink Re:How Far South with Colorado Blue Spruce

[quote=Isleofpalms85;32138986]Yes, well I would say that given the relatively mild climate of Arkansas(even the Ozarks), I would say you are towards the southern edge of the successful growing range of the Colorado Blue Spruce, but your neighbor could be right in saying your zone is a little bit too warm for this spruce tree. But I know they are frequently planted in areas north of you and are pretty frequent where I live, Indianapolis area, Indiana Hope I helped Just to edit a tidbit of info, from what other people on this forum have indicated, Colorado Blue Spruce prefers USDA Hardiness Zones 3 through Zone 7. The 2012 Hardiness Zone map, the updated version since 1990, has the Ozarks of Arkansas as a solid Hardiness Zone 7. So this means that Zones 8 and up, without additional significant coddling(watering well in the heat of summer when rain isn't effective enough), interesting though because when I go to see my Family in Dallas, Texas, in USDA Hardiness Zone 8a, I am always seeing whether I can see any Blue Spruce, and I haven't seen a single Colorado Blue Spruce growing in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. The person who is growing them in a Zone 9 in California? I am sure that time will tell that the Mugginess of the South aka Arkansas summer especially anywhere south of Zone 7b that presumable the spruce would not do well and may not make it. California Summers are much different than Arkansas or North Texas or Summers in the Southeastern U.S.. So That is why I suspect the person who commented on this thread has had success in a USDA Hardiness zone 2 full zones outside its Hardiness Range of 3 to 7.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 10:32 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,315,209 times
Reputation: 661
teddy52, it's possible that the pine with the "very long" needles is pinus palustris (aka "longleaf pine", LOL) a native southern pine often planted as a forestry plantation tree OR it could be p. taeda ("loblolly pine") which has needles about 12" long----palustris has needles up to 18"---and is also native to parts of your state (it's the state tree) and planted for forestry.

isleofpalms85, FWIW, I have a blue spruce tree growing here in Bandon southern coastal Oregon (zone 9b according to the new USDA map). that said, many parts of the far west especially along near the coastal areas have very mild summers (actually rather cool by most folks standards) that are quite congenial to a variety of conifers native and otherwise. it's apparently a dwarf variety as it grows rather slowly (it's about 8' tall after 15 years) but it has never seemed to suffer from drought even though our summers are very dry (generally almost completely rainless late june thru mid sept most years) and I never water it. would surmise that the coolness of the summers here help cancel out the dryness.

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 11-07-2013 at 10:55 PM.. Reason: bad punctuation
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 11:18 PM
 
2,063 posts, read 7,730,923 times
Reputation: 2754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy52 View Post
I'll keep the trees watered and my fingers crossed.

Every morning when I look at those three trees ( about 28 inches tall) I envision what they will look like when about 8-10 ft tall.

I am 68, so I hope I'm still around to see them then.
That's why I hated to say no you can't, but you will need to give them some extra care in summer conditions, especially if we go through some more of the droughts we've had or excessive heat waves. After a few years they should have a strong enough root system that you will only need to water in more extreme conditions. People living in more moderate conditions just don't understand the conditions of the mid continent and wish to ignore it instead. I'm sure if you take as good care as it sounds like you are they will survive and grow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isleofpalms85 View Post
Yes, well I would say that given the relatively mild climate of Arkansas(even the Ozarks), I would say you are towards the southern edge of the successful growing range of the Colorado Blue Spruce, but your neighbor could be right in saying your zone is a little bit too warm for this spruce tree. But I know they are frequently planted in areas north of you and are pretty frequent where I live, Indianapolis area, Indiana Hope I helped Just to edit a tidbit of info, from what other people on this forum have indicated, Colorado Blue Spruce prefers USDA Hardiness Zones 3 through Zone 7. The 2012 Hardiness Zone map, the updated version since 1990, has the Ozarks of Arkansas as a solid Hardiness Zone 7. So this means that Zones 8 and up, without additional significant coddling(watering well in the heat of summer when rain isn't effective enough), interesting though because when I go to see my Family in Dallas, Texas, in USDA Hardiness Zone 8a, I am always seeing whether I can see any Blue Spruce, and I haven't seen a single Colorado Blue Spruce growing in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. The person who is growing them in a Zone 9 in California? I am sure that time will tell that the Mugginess of the South aka Arkansas summer especially anywhere south of Zone 7b that presumable the spruce would not do well and may not make it. California Summers are much different than Arkansas or North Texas or Summers in the Southeastern U.S.. So That is why I suspect the person who commented on this thread has had success in a USDA Hardiness zone 2 full zones outside its Hardiness Range of 3 to 7.
The problem is everyone talks about the zones like they determine everything, when that should be a starting reference if something is hardy enough to survive winter. The zones are generalized and are determined by several things all revolving on the number of cold days below certain temperatures. Simplistic or willfully ignorant people will always refer to the zone as if it was identical across the country and tell you "I can grow it in my zone 6 garden so it can grow anywhere." It isn't even close and shows a complete ignorance of how things grow in different climates.

As an example I share the same zone with a friend living in coastal Alaska who just had her first snow, my roses are still blooming and I haven't needed to winterize yet. Another friend has a wonderful garden in coastal MA with the same zone and we grow most of the same kinds of perennials with the exception that she can have certain ones in full sun where I have to protect mine from afternoon sun and water them more frequently to have them survive, and they still can be marginal. All three of us can grow some plants equally well but others not at all. The differences of survivability is what has driven the creation of other "zone" maps and tables like the Heat Zone map I linked to.

Some of the more informative places on plant survivability will list the USDA zone, sometimes the heat zone and very often the Sunset Zone just because each part of the country is so different. The Sunset Zone was developed to reflect the difference between a west coast zone 8 and an East Coast Zone 8 and how growing conditions are different. People in the southwest and west coast will find it more accurate for a lot of plants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinbandonoregon View Post
teddy52, it's possible that the pine with the "very long" needles is pinus palustris (aka "longleaf pine", LOL) a native southern pine often planted as a forestry plantation tree OR it could be p. taeda ("loblolly pine") which has needles about 12" long----palustris has needles up to 18"---and is also native to parts of your state (it's the state tree) and planted for forestry.

isleofpalms85, FWIW, I have a blue spruce tree growing here in coastal Oregon (zone 9b according to the new USDA map). that said, many milder parts of the far west especially along near the coastal areas have very mild (actually rather cool by most folks standards) that are quite congenial to a variety of conifers. it's apparently a dwarf conifer as it grows rather slowly but it has never seemed to suffer from drought even though our summers are very dry (generally almost completely rainless late june thru mid sept most years) and I never water it. would surmise that the coolness of the summers here help cancel out the dryness.
Your last sentence or two is exactly the reason why using just the zone number to determine survivability is so useless at times. It's not just winter cold, it is summer heat, or a tendency to dry periods or wet periods that make the difference. You describe why things grow in OR and WA that cannot grow in the same zone in mid-continent or in the deep south. The heat makes a very big difference that people with more coastal climates, and therefor much more moderate weather, do not understand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2013, 11:58 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,315,209 times
Reputation: 661
actually I understand the difference in summer heat between the west coast and much of the rest of the country reasonably well and used the USDA zone solely as a point of reference however vague. I specifically noted that the west coast mild areas often have much cooler summers compared to other parts of the country and is likely the chief reason that the blue spruce I have can go without any water at all during our very dry summers. OTOH, the underlying problem IMHO is that there is really no rating system that everybody accepts and understands that can both adequately "describe" the climate, plant performance, and relationship to other climates in a really concise way. cold zones (USDA) and heat zones (AHS), and the sunset gardening zone designations all have their benefits and problems---the climate and microclimates are just too many and subtle over the huge geographical area they try to cover AND plants are just too diverse in their individual and collective responses to their environment for easy answers to what grows where. OTOH, any and all of the systems can be helpful in getting some idea of what MIGHT make it in a given area. that said, I have grown more than a few plants that the zones and books says shouldn't do well where I am thru proper correct siting (including drainage, sun and shade exposure, soil type, etc,, etc,), water (sometimes more summer water, sometimes none at all after establishment) and fertilizing practices, dumb luck (!!!!!!), and the often very surprising natural toughness and adaptability of plants if given half a chance (sometimes because of and sometimes despite the gardeners best efforts, LOL).

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 11-08-2013 at 12:28 AM.. Reason: poor wording
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-08-2013, 08:56 AM
 
2,063 posts, read 7,730,923 times
Reputation: 2754
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinbandonoregon View Post
actually I understand the difference in summer heat between the west coast and much of the rest of the country reasonably well and used the USDA zone solely as a point of reference however vague. I specifically noted that the west coast mild areas often have much cooler summers compared to other parts of the country and is likely the chief reason that the blue spruce I have can go without any water at all during our very dry summers. OTOH, the underlying problem IMHO is that there is really no rating system that everybody accepts and understands that can both adequately "describe" the climate, plant performance, and relationship to other climates in a really concise way. cold zones (USDA) and heat zones (AHS), and the sunset gardening zone designations all have their benefits and problems---the climate and microclimates are just too many and subtle over the huge geographical area they try to cover AND plants are just too diverse in their individual and collective responses to their environment for easy answers to what grows where. OTOH, any and all of the systems can be helpful in getting some idea of what MIGHT make it in a given area. that said, I have grown more than a few plants that the zones and books says shouldn't do well where I am thru proper correct siting (including drainage, sun and shade exposure, soil type, etc,, etc,), water (sometimes more summer water, sometimes none at all after establishment) and fertilizing practices, dumb luck (!!!!!!), and the often very surprising natural toughness and adaptability of plants if given half a chance (sometimes because of and sometimes despite the gardeners best efforts, LOL).
I am pretty sure we agree.... but I think you thought I meant your advice was wrong, which I didn't. Sometimes getting meaning across is hard to do in these forums. I was trying to get across that there are general references for cold that so many take as some kind of hard and firm, or black and white, measure of success for plants. That is overly simplistic and as soon as I see someone say something like that I know they are not very knowledgeable beyond their local area. You discussed more detailed reasons which I appreciated. In the last post you mentioned exactly why using just the USDA zones is a folly and I attempted to say why I agreed. Guess it didn't come out that way to you. Sorry


What I get frustrated with is the ignorant "it works for me so it has to work for you" nonsense that several people in the forum promulgate on a regular basis. It's a kind of provincial way of looking at the world and assuming something is true without actually knowing anything about anywhere else but their little corner.

Over the years I have been exposed to gardens and growing conditions all over the country. Part of my time spent in conservation was learning how different native plants, shrubs and trees can be within a larger state, let alone a country. Weather, elevation, moisture, drainage and soil play a large part in what thrives and what is marginal. Having moved from a northern to a southern garden has really brought home some of the differences as I find things thrive so very differently in each place.

For years southern gardeners had been frustrated trying to grow things they really couldn't because of that kind of expectation, since mid-Atlantic and more northern gardens were successful the expectation was the south should be, too. There are many more specialty gardens now that reflect real conditions for surviving in the south. Many New England gardeners were unable to emulate the English or European gardens that had been the pinnacle of the beautiful garden for the same reason, in this case bitter cold that England rarely sees.

Middle continent weather conditions are very different than coastal conditions. We either have colder winters, hotter summers or in some cases both, in many parts of the center of the country. These extremes are mitigated by ocean influences and associated winds, and each coast is different as well. As you said even micro-climates can make a big difference. Those can make as much of a difference as 1 or 2 "zones" if you know what you are doing and how to use the contours of your property well.


OP sorry to hijack the thread. Back to the topic....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-08-2013, 09:54 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 1,315,209 times
Reputation: 661
thanks for clearing any misunderstanding on my part up. i'm glad we agree on the frustrating problems in trying to communicate and compare experiences in plant performance from one area to another. the differences between the coastal areas (either pacific, or atlantic, or gulf) to more interior areas can be significant to the point where in some cases they can be completely different gardening worlds. Still, there may be and often are points of similarity in climate patterns and again plants are often more adaptable and hospitable to change than the gardeners who discuss them LOL. the blue spruce MAY be a case in point in one part of the country it may appreciate full sun and whatever natural water it gets and not much else, in another, it may really need part shade and depending on soil and drainage some summer water (if there is significant drought and heat or no water at all at that time because the summers are basically humid and such drought as happens is actually of relatively short duration and heavy watering at that time may actually lead to lethal root rots). in other climatic combinations the same plant may be rather adaptable to a variety of settings and in others (say florida--- hot and wet in miami--- or Arizona---hot and dry in phoenix) it's basically ungrowable without "heroic life support" of some sort!!!! hopefully, forums like this will allow folks with questions to get a variety of perspectives that may actually be helpful to them (plus allowing the possibility of "robust" discussions that may be interesting and helpful to them and others in sometimes tangential ways) and just maybe it will all lead to BOTH a happy gardener and a happy plant!!!!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Garden
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top