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Old 01-09-2017, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Floribama
11,496 posts, read 25,851,699 times
Reputation: 8724

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 rainbows View Post
ok technically I stand corrected. But all those ^ trees most likely are unusable in a >FOOD-forest<;
thus off-topic.
I have towering 100' tall pecan trees around my property, and while they provide lots of nuts (some years), they also provide deep shade. I do have blueberries, pawpaws, Chickasaw plums, muscadines and red mulberries growing near them, but the typical grafted Asian type fruits most people know from the supermarket would not survive.. maybe Asian persimmons would, but I'm still experimenting with those.
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Old 01-09-2017, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Constitutional USA, zn.8A
685 posts, read 158,664 times
Reputation: 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinbandonoregon View Post
since most of the fruit trees (and most of the traditional berries, too) really need lots of sun to do their best
I would suggest you might consider not planting them too close to the taller trees in rows or otherwise.
Thank you, I think the same thing, Agreed; - so still don't know the LAY-OUT, iow floor-plan as it were.

Quote:
tall trees of any sort might best be used as wind-breaks/shelter plantings and kept a fair distance (50') from the smaller stuff.
chestnuts (especially European/Asian hybrids) can do well in the PNW and you might consider them in your large tree plantings.
they MIGHT be better adapted, and might also be quicker to come into fruit production and need somewhat less heat units to bear.
ok but as I remember as a child the Chestnut TREES formed a HUGE umbrella, & Blocked nearly 90% of the sun; so how could that work?
Tho several neighbors from a nearby county in SW Wa.grow & sell chestnut trees, should prolly call & ask them.

Quote:
for best use of space and easier planting and harvesting you may have to stick with "a forest planted in rows" and
maybe end up with even more of a traditional orchard look of low trees in a clearing surrounded by taller trees.
my two bits and hopefully more experienced and wiser folks will chime in with more and better suggestions.
well, continue as a member of a FRUIT-grower's organization, with arborists, botanists, other gardeners, master-gardeners, nursery-profs, orchardists, & the like. Yet all (but my Agronomist friend) in there do not understand "food-foresting" either.
Fondly they tell me how I am such a good teacher; but when I NEED help like with this for years, members have nary a clue. Frustrating!
We need to add a class on SOIL-HEALTH, so people can get why practices like tillage DISrupts plant immunity...
so
just today reserved 2 library-bks: https://www.amazon.com/Integrated-Fo.../dp/1603584978 2014, &
too
https://www.amazon.com/Forest-Garden.../dp/1603584269 2015. but
these two https://www.amazon.com/Edible-Forest...1890132608/ref are the Best, but $97 !! Yikes
so
Finally for today, found http://www.onecommunityglobal.org/fo...opy-plantings/ with
Specific plants for the 5-9 layers; but still searching for the LAY-OUT, iow floor-plan.

Thank you George for reaching out. Much appreciated.
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Old 01-09-2017, 05:07 PM
 
1,131 posts, read 524,790 times
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think the chestnuts would need to be planted away from the smaller fruits and nuts as a windbreak/shelter wood. I merely suggested them as POTENTIALLY quicker to reach fruiting stage and PERHAPS better adapted to our climate again, think it's difficult to plant big trees intermixed with the other stuff---unless you have large/wide spaces between the "row" of big trees and the "rows" of small trees and shrubs.


again, hopefully someone more experienced in this sort of thing under your climatic conditions will share their knowledge on the practicalities.
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Constitutional USA, zn.8A
685 posts, read 158,664 times
Reputation: 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinbandonoregon View Post
think
the chestnuts would need to be planted away from the smaller fruits and nuts as a windbreak/shelter wood.
I merely suggested them as POTENTIALLY quicker to reach fruiting stage and PERHAPS better adapted to our climate again,
think it's difficult to plant big trees intermixed with the other stuff---unless you have large/wide spaces
between the "row" of big trees and the "rows" of small trees and shrubs.
ok George, abandon the 'row' catastrophe, may we please, pretty please. Thank you.
as
Rows do not have any place, nor do they hold space, in Forest-gardens... Think NATIVE-forests.
(Not the man-made gunk that screwed too much up). ... Thank you for being understanding.
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
4,654 posts, read 3,391,336 times
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Well, I have a tall tree canopy, but I cannot seem to get them to grow mulberries OR make room for me to plant apple or pear trees. I tried to plant blueberries but they aren't doing any thing. I have seen climbing kiwi for my zone, so maybe that will be my next step!
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Old 01-09-2017, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Floribama
11,496 posts, read 25,851,699 times
Reputation: 8724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagemomma View Post
Well, I have a tall tree canopy, but I cannot seem to get them to grow mulberries OR make room for me to plant apple or pear trees. I tried to plant blueberries but they aren't doing any thing. I have seen climbing kiwi for my zone, so maybe that will be my next step!
Blueberries love growing underneath pine trees where they get dappled shade, they love the acid from the pine needles too. I have three bushes and I freeze enough berries to last me all year.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:28 AM
 
81 posts, read 42,254 times
Reputation: 195
Cool to see topics on permaculture/food forestry, etc. It really is the best, most productive way in general to "garden". I hope the permaculture movement keeps generating steam.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rainroosty View Post
Yes! Northern Florida is loaded with forests in rows. Yeah, it does exist. Entire forests in rows.
I don't believe that was the original point. If I may, I believe the poster meant that left to itself, in nature, one does not see rows of trees (or rows of anything) naturally spring up and grow. Nature does not behave that way. You do not see straight lines or rows in nature.

Those forests that are in rows were via the efforts of man. Man plants in unnatural rows and straight lines.

For who would like to learn more about food forests and permaculture, Toby Hemenway's Gaia's Garden is one of the best all-around books out there. If you can't afford it, check w/ your local library. Amazing book.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:33 PM
 
Location: British Columbia
3,760 posts, read 4,245,498 times
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If I was going to plan a food forest I would completely omit tall trees and most climbers. I don't see them as being necessary to the food forest concept and in certain conditions I think they may do more harm than good. I'd likely go for:

1 - short fruit and nut trees that are more manageable, easier to keep pruned and shaped, easier to harvest.
2 - berry shrubs
3 - ground cover crops
4 - root crops - not near any trees and shrubs, so as to avoid disturbance of their roots.

On the outside boundaries of the food forest I may consider trained vines/climbers and espaliered fruit trees.

.
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Old 01-12-2017, 03:01 PM
 
81 posts, read 42,254 times
Reputation: 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
If I was going to plan a food forest I would completely omit tall trees and most climbers. I don't see them as being necessary to the food forest concept and in certain conditions I think they may do more harm than good. I'd likely go for:

1 - short fruit and nut trees that are more manageable, easier to keep pruned and shaped, easier to harvest.
2 - berry shrubs
3 - ground cover crops
4 - root crops - not near any trees and shrubs, so as to avoid disturbance of their roots.

On the outside boundaries of the food forest I may consider trained vines/climbers and espaliered fruit trees.

.
I'm curious, why exactly do you not believe tall trees and the climbers are valuable? Is the pruning issue in your mind the biggest deal? So it's a maintenance thing? What do you mean "harmful"?

IMO, when evaluating the layer concept, tall trees and climbers seem to usually have a place in most situations in terms of spacing and fitting everything in. Even in smaller spaces. Now, of course tall tree layers may not work for every small space, especially in tight urban enviros, but here and there one should be able to fit them in.

Tall trees provide much needed shade for humans in summer, excellent protection for wildlife, etc. And vines seem easy to fit in space wise.

In a true forest, nature will do whatever, and tall trees and vines/climbers are part of the equation. If I were doing a food forest, it wouldn't likely be in a close zone so it would be necessarily wild by definition and not maintained by humans. I'd let everything go wild and grow and let nature take it's course.

Just my .02 cents.
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Old 01-12-2017, 03:55 PM
 
3,516 posts, read 1,117,964 times
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fruit trees ( apple trees for sure) do best when planted in an open ...field...with no tall trees nearby.


My 12 apple trees, planted on the east side of a tall woods/wind break on my farm, didn't do nearly as well as the 12 I planted in an open field.
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