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Old 09-19-2017, 12:38 PM
 
21,016 posts, read 15,482,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prettygreeneyes View Post
My brother warmed me about using Roundup when I visited him in the Caribbean last year. He's an Agriculturist; he says it's banned in Europe.
he's wrong.

French and German farmers urge renewal of EU glyphosate license
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Old 09-19-2017, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Glasgow Scotland
13,074 posts, read 9,704,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uggabugga View Post
money talks...again.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:02 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
64,718 posts, read 54,398,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
Actually, the biggest study on Agent Orange was published in JAMA ~35 y/a. Tens of thousands of GIs exposed to AO in Nam were paired with a cohort of GIs stationed elsewhere during those yrs. They found that 10 yrs after the end of the war, exposed guys AND their kids were healthier than those not exposed. Politicians in Congress, being what they are, voted funds for the vets anyways. Facts apparently have no place when votes are at stake.

In regards lymphoma: 2x a very small number is still a very small number.

In regards association with cancer: almost all victims of colon cancer, on close questioning admit to having swallowed small amounts of saliva on occasion over the previous ten yrs.

The advantage of glyphosate in ag is that it has a very short life in the soil, attacks plant, not animal, enzyme systems and is safer than other available herbicides. These desirable traits make it a preferred agent and this has then led to the development of "RoundUp Ready" crops, resistant to the effects of the herbicide.

Europe has outlawed the use of glyphosate, not on scientific grounds, but for economic considerations: to exclude American competition from their markets. Pretty simple.
What? Swallowing saliva causes colon cancer?! Is there a typo there, somewhere?
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:44 AM
 
Location: Central WI
916 posts, read 303,869 times
Reputation: 1623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
What? Swallowing saliva causes colon cancer?! Is there a typo there, somewhere?
No typo. Thanks for falling into the trap, illustrating how easily people not accustomed or trained to analyze data can come to false conclusions when presented with evidence of correlation.

Fact: all people swallow saliva.
Fact: some people develop colon cancer.
Correlation: all people with colon cancer have swallowed saliva.
False conclusion: saliva causes colon cancer..... Correlation does not imply cause and effect.

In regards glyphosate and cancer: virtually all Americans are exposed to low levels of glyphosate and some Americans develop cancer. Cause & effect?

It's true that people with higher exposures to glyphosate (farmers & workers at chemical plants) have an ever so small increased risk of developing certain cancers (Maybe. Conflicting studies http://www.nature.com/news/widely-us...cancer-1.17181 ). It could be that they also have other "confounding factors" that actually are the cause of the increased risk and those factors are also more common in people exposed to the glyphosate. Eg: farmers probably have a higher exposure to molds & fungi which produce chemicals like aflatoxin which seems to induce certain cancers.

The more important questions (if we concede that glyphosate is a carcinogen) are how much exposure causes cancer and how much cancer does it cause?

First, understand that there are no poisons, only poisonous doses: even water or Oxygen are toxic in very high doses. Look at alcohol: a little is actually good for us; a lot causes disease. The amount of glyphosate present in the food we eat is minimal. It takes very sensitive lab testing to even detect it. The Feds allow up to 20 parts per Million and Consumer Reports say none of 30 samples of soy beans had that much. https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...diet/index.htm

Secondly, how much cancer does it cause? Well, ~ 4 Million Americans die every year and of those 40,000 die in traffic accidents, 50,000 from lung cancer and 150,000 from all other cancers. How many of those are caused by glyphosate? Even if it's 1000 (highly unlikely) maybe that's the price we must pay to have a large, secure source of food for the other 315 Million Americans.

Last edited by guidoLaMoto; 09-20-2017 at 01:52 AM..
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Old 09-20-2017, 02:00 AM
 
Location: Glasgow Scotland
13,074 posts, read 9,704,664 times
Reputation: 18526
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
No typo. Thanks for falling into the trap, illustrating how easily people not accustomed or trained to analyze data can come to false conclusions when presented with evidence of correlation.

Fact: all people swallow saliva.
Fact: some people develop colon cancer.
Correlation: all people with colon cancer have swallowed saliva.
False conclusion: saliva causes colon cancer..... Correlation does not imply cause and effect.

In regards glyphosate and cancer: virtually all Americans are exposed to low levels of glyphosate and some Americans develop cancer. Cause & effect?

It's true that people with higher exposures to glyphosate (farmers & workers at chemical plants) have an ever so small increased risk of developing certain cancers (Maybe. Conflicting studies Widely used herbicide linked to cancer : Nature News & Comment ). It could be that they also have other "confounding factors" that actually are the cause of the increased risk and those factors are also more common in people exposed to the glyphosate. Eg: farmers probably have a higher exposure to molds & fungi which produce chemicals like aflatoxin which seems to induce certain cancers.

The more important questions (if we concede that glyphosate is a carcinogen) are how much exposure causes cancer and how much cancer does it cause?

First, understand that there are no poisons, only poisonous doses: even water or Oxygen are toxic in very high doses. Look at alcohol: a little is actually good for us; a lot causes disease. The amount of glyphosate present in the food we eat is minimal. It takes very sensitive lab testing to even detect it. The Feds allow up to 20 parts per Million and Consumer Reports say none of 30 samples of soy beans had that much. https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...diet/index.htm

Secondly, how much cancer does it cause? Well, ~ 4 Million Americans die every year and of those 40,000 die in traffic accidents, 50,000 from lung cancer and 150,000 from all other cancers. How many of those are caused by glyphosate? Even if it's 1000 (highly unlikely) maybe that's the price we must pay to have a large, secure source of food for the other 315 Million Americans.
Well they had better think of some other way to keep crops in order.. Do you for one second think that Monstanto are putting death rates caused by their product on the back of bottles.. not a chance, theyre raking in more than crops.. and poisoning us on mass.. is crop spraying this rubbish still allowed in the US.. There is evidence of all these chemicals killing bees, and if they kill off bees they will also kill us... We need bees to survive.. If All The Bees In The World Die, Humans Will Not Survive https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ious-harm-bees
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Old 09-20-2017, 07:30 AM
 
Location: Central WI
916 posts, read 303,869 times
Reputation: 1623
Better educate yourself rather than believe the ***** published by the rag The Guardian:
https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2...no-bee-killer/

Honey bees are an invasive species in NA and have devastated the natural pollinators here.

Among crops used for human consumption, only fruit trees require insect pollinators. Most field crops are wind pollinated.

edited to comment: hats off to the editing software here. I used a foreign word above an it was still edited out ;-)
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Old 09-20-2017, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Floribama
11,928 posts, read 26,993,927 times
Reputation: 9352
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzybint View Post
Well they had better think of some other way to keep crops in order.. Do you for one second think that Monstanto are putting death rates caused by their product on the back of bottles.. not a chance, theyre raking in more than crops.. and poisoning us on mass.. is crop spraying this rubbish still allowed in the US.. There is evidence of all these chemicals killing bees, and if they kill off bees they will also kill us... We need bees to survive.. If All The Bees In The World Die, Humans Will Not Survive https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ious-harm-bees
Good grief! The bee decline is mostly blamed on improperly used systemic pesticides such as imidicloprid, it is certainly NOT caused by glyphosate.

You must live in an apartment and not own any natural property, or else you'd know sometimes these chemicals are necessary. Where I live we have all kinds of nasty exotic invasives, such as Cogon grass, Chinese privet, Chinese Tallow, Asian wisteria, etc... If you don't use herbicides on these plants they will take over. You can mechanically remove the top growth, but if you don't kill the roots they'll come right back. Sometimes glyphosate isn't even strong enough, and I have to move up to triclopyr or 2,4-d.

I'd like to see you manage about 5 acres of land with these invasives without using any chemicals.
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:55 AM
 
1,989 posts, read 731,607 times
Reputation: 1663
It's clear that some folks here are immune to data. I dare say some follow into the logic trap of "proving something is safe". That's logically and practically impossible. And, as GLM pointed out, many fall into the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. Google if you don't know it.

Nothing is absolutely safe. Swallow glyphosate, and you'll be sick. Roll in newly sprayed weeds, you won't, ever, based on today's knowledge (and folks have looked hard.)

Some of the "critics" here should get a better understanding of ag chemicals. Insecticides, selective herbicides, non-selective herbicides, fungisides, fertilizers, and growth regulators are all different things. Insecticides are often the most toxic, with the biggest environmental costs, but all of these are, and will remain, part of our lives.

A toxicology note: It was discovered, way back in the 1970s, that dose does matter. For many things, not just ag chemicals, low doses are safe, high doses are toxic. This even goes for vitamins such as vitamin D. The reason for this general effect is that the body is well equipped with mechanisms such as P450 to detoxify things. If the channels get swamped, bad things can happen.

Finally, those afraid of chemicals might read a bit about natural toxins. Aflatoxin can often be found in foods, fortunately at safe levels. But at higher levels, it is highly carcinogenic, for liver cancer. Many more examples like this.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:10 AM
 
Location: S.W. British Columbia
4,340 posts, read 4,686,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post


Honey bees are an invasive species in NA and have devastated the natural pollinators here.

How have honey bees devastated other pollinators?


.
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Old 09-20-2017, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Central WI
916 posts, read 303,869 times
Reputation: 1623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
How have honey bees devastated other pollinators?


.

fer instance-- COMPETITIVE INTERACTIONS BETWEEN THE INVASIVE EUROPEAN HONEY BEE AND NATIVE BUMBLE BEES - Thomson - 2004 - Ecology - Wiley Online Library

BTW-- We're recovering now from the most recent, decade long episode of CCD-- but it's a cyclic problem and has occurred several times in the past century. It probably has little to do with use of chemicals and more to do with the natural cyclic interaction of species involved in predator/ prey or host/infection relationships, or, it could merely be a function of the cyclic reproductive factors that influence population growth and decay. The classic 17 yr locust cycle is an extreme example of such phenomena.
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