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Old 01-08-2020, 08:04 AM
 
Location: SW Florida
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Here is my opinion on Palm trees. They look nice sometimes but they rarely provide enough shade when you live in a hot, sunny climate. They serve no purpose except for aesthetically.
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Old 01-08-2020, 10:25 AM
 
37,442 posts, read 45,643,588 times
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt-lover L.A.M. View Post
Other way around for me. I see people growing Japanese Bananas EVERYWHERE here, and I hate it due to their winter dormancy. Same with Crepemyrtles. Needle Palms would go much better with their Southern Magnolias, not to mention you'd be introducing a species from the same continent (as opposed to foreign ones) rather than just choosing evergreen over deciduous. It's almost as if most people here don't care about species becoming invasive nor people who have seasonal depression.



Quite the contrary. Cabbage Palmettos are native to the Outer Banks and Dwarf Palmettos to Virginia Beach, the latter even extending across the bay slightly. Similarly, Dwarf Palmetto also reaches well into Arkansas, into Oklahoma (where the McCurtain cultivar originated) and even borders Tennessee in Georgia and comes very close in Alabama and Mississippi.

Often, you'll have better luck if you choose the dwarf palms (Needle Palm or Dwarf Palmetto) rather than wasting time and money on a Chinese Windmill Palm (which prefers mild-summer climates anyways) or Cabbage Palmetto (which prefers the Deep South, of which those three cities are at the northern periphery). Needle Palm isn't even trunkless as it's often believed to be; it's just that the trunk is short and lower leaves must be pruned to show it.
Sorry but that is not correct. Cabbage Palmetto (sabal palmetto) is NOT native to Virginia OR OBX. You can find more of them in OBX as they bring them in for the tourists, but even there, they often succumb to the winters.

https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/plants/sabal-palmetto/

https://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/...D%20OCCURRENCE

https://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/...tle/sabpal.pdf

http://hort.ufl.edu/trees/SABPALA.pdf

Virginia Tech Dendrology Fact Sheet

https://plants.usda.gov/plantguide/pdf/cs_sami8.pdf



Dwarf Palmettos (sabal minor) are considered native in SE coastal NC, but most folks that want a "palm tree" are not going to be satisfied with these. I love palm trees, personally, as I was raised in FL, but I dislike these things. They are just "scrub palms" to me.

https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/plants/sabal-minor/


As for the Windmill Palm....it's a PITA. You have to be really determined and put up with wrapping the tree every winter. Those folks that don't, eventually lose the tree, unless it is in a really protected area.
https://www.junglemusic.net/Trachyca...mill_Palm.html
" Trachycarpus are one of the more cold tolerant of palm species and may be the ideal plant for such growers. As mentioned above, the lower cold limits of Trachycarpus fortunei is somewhere between zero and ten degrees F. Thus, if one's weather is not going to get to 15 degrees F or lower., probably no cold protection is needed. Below this number, it is probably wise to consider protecting your plant(s). Cold damage comes quickly, even with just one night's exposure. And, the exact low can never be precisely known in advance. If you think you'll be seeing temperatures in the single digits or lower, you should plan ahead and protect your plants."

The plant zones were officially updated in 2012, and many sites will say that I am in zone 8a. But I know that ain't so, because I know what will grow in my yard and what won't make it through the winter. When I look up my zip on the official map, this one...

https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/PHZMWeb/ it shows that I am in 7b. I am just a few minutes south of VA Beach, and most if not all of VB is zone 8a so my zone is southern, but colder. For example, Chindo Viburnums show as hardy in my zone. I planted one several years ago, and 3 more, about 4 years ago. They are one of my favorite plants as they are cold hardy and evergreen. They have always looked beautiful, year in and year out. It had been my intention to plant a full hedge of them across the back yard. But then 2 years ago, we got a severe cold snap, and they nearly died. All the foliage dropped, and I had nothing but sticks for a solid year. I thought they were gone, but I cut them way back, and thankfully they came back and are looking pretty good (although they lost a lot of their original size). For that reason, I won't plant any more of them.

So even though you might find a zone classification that justifies a planting, you have to be careful for those on the edge. You will probably find it more effort than it is worth.

As far as crape myrtles (not "crepe") they are very very hardy here and quite lovely. I actually LOVE their winter look as the mature myrtles have such beautiful trunks (unless you are one of the idiots that commit "crape murder" every year. ). I have never pruned the tops of mine and they are 20 years old now, and just stunning in the winter.

Last edited by ChessieMom; 01-08-2020 at 10:33 AM..
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Old 01-08-2020, 10:44 AM
 
13,611 posts, read 20,667,679 times
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Originally Posted by ChessieMom View Post
Exactly. I have co-workers that have given up on palm trees due to those occasional surprisingly cold winter snaps. My neighbor across the street got rid of his one remaining one and gave up on them for good, last year.

Even an hour south you won't find many. OBX has more palms, but they have a hard time keeping them alive. There is a reason they are not native this far north.
Actually, the Sabal Minor/Dwarf Palmetto is native up to Virginia Beach. I believe First Landing Park or whatever it is called has many growing wild. Spanish Moss too.

Sabal Minors and Needle Palms do well in my Maryland garden, so they should be bullet proof in VB.

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Old 01-08-2020, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Putnam County, TN
1,056 posts, read 709,675 times
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Originally Posted by chiluvr1228 View Post
Here is my opinion on Palm trees. They look nice sometimes but they rarely provide enough shade when you live in a hot, sunny climate. They serve no purpose except for aesthetically.
I know, but I asked about Live Oak too. Live Oaks can. Also, there are some palms that are small and do well under shade trees. You have a problem with Live Oaks too?

Quote:
Sorry but that is not correct. Cabbage Palmetto (sabal palmetto) is NOT native to Virginia OR OBX. You can find more of them in OBX as they bring them in for the tourists, but even there, they often succumb to the winters.
I never said Cabbage Palmettos were native to Virginia. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Also, are you sure they succumb to winters in ALL of the Outer Banks? I'm pretty sure Cape Hatteras is Zone 9, which is well above marginal for a Cabbage Palmetto. Ocean moderation there is so intense that tropical fauna live there and 90F temps barely happen in most years. If they indisputably do well in Charleston, surely they would there too?
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Old 01-09-2020, 07:48 AM
 
37,442 posts, read 45,643,588 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Belt-lover L.A.M. View Post
I know, but I asked about Live Oak too. Live Oaks can. Also, there are some palms that are small and do well under shade trees. You have a problem with Live Oaks too?



I never said Cabbage Palmettos were native to Virginia. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Also, are you sure they succumb to winters in ALL of the Outer Banks? I'm pretty sure Cape Hatteras is Zone 9, which is well above marginal for a Cabbage Palmetto. Ocean moderation there is so intense that tropical fauna live there and 90F temps barely happen in most years. If they indisputably do well in Charleston, surely they would there too?
No - not all of OBX, only from Nag's Head north. I spend quite a bit of time in Kitty Hawk and Duck, Corolla, etc.
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Old 01-09-2020, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Putnam County, TN
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Originally Posted by ChessieMom View Post
No - not all of OBX, only from Nag's Head north. I spend quite a bit of time in Kitty Hawk and Duck, Corolla, etc.
Thanks for clarifying! But still, even if the Cabbage Palmettos succumb to those three cities' winters and Chinese Windmill Palms need milder summers, why not choose the dwarf palms instead if they'll grow?
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Old 01-09-2020, 07:27 PM
 
37,442 posts, read 45,643,588 times
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt-lover L.A.M. View Post
Thanks for clarifying! But still, even if the Cabbage Palmettos succumb to those three cities' winters and Chinese Windmill Palms need milder summers, why not choose the dwarf palms instead if they'll grow?
They are simply not very attractive. They look “ scrubby”.

If I liked a tropical looking yard, but did not live where I could have a healthy attractive palm tree, why bother? Go with what works well. What grows happily in the climate, that I actually like the looks of. Otherwise get a greenhouse.
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Old 01-09-2020, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Putnam County, TN
1,056 posts, read 709,675 times
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Originally Posted by ChessieMom View Post
They are simply not very attractive. They look “ scrubby”.
In your opinion. What I don't understand is why so many people would think that, especially somewhere that any winter greenery could be quite noticeable. I find that they look far less "scrubby" than generic desert shrubs or dormant deciduous trees. Even though yews are commonly thought of as trees and can't be grown tree-form around here, they're still grown as shrubs VERY often in the Nashville area.

Also, Needle Palms can actually have the lower leaves pruned as they grow more and it'll expose their short trunk. Most people don't know that, but do you think it'd make any difference if they did?
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Old 01-09-2020, 09:48 PM
 
37,442 posts, read 45,643,588 times
Reputation: 56850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Belt-lover L.A.M. View Post
In your opinion. What I don't understand is why so many people would think that, especially somewhere that any winter greenery could be quite noticeable. I find that they look far less "scrubby" than generic desert shrubs or dormant deciduous trees. Even though yews are commonly thought of as trees and can't be grown tree-form around here, they're still grown as shrubs VERY often in the Nashville area.

Also, Needle Palms can actually have the lower leaves pruned as they grow more and it'll expose their short trunk. Most people don't know that, but do you think it'd make any difference if they did?
Well obviously it is *my* opinion. But is is also others' as well. I don't understand why it bothers you.
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Old 01-10-2020, 04:45 PM
 
Location: A Yankee in northeast TN
15,966 posts, read 20,927,996 times
Reputation: 43202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Belt-lover L.A.M. View Post
In your opinion. What I don't understand is why so many people would think that, especially somewhere that any winter greenery could be quite noticeable. I find that they look far less "scrubby" than generic desert shrubs or dormant deciduous trees. Even though yews are commonly thought of as trees and can't be grown tree-form around here, they're still grown as shrubs VERY often in the Nashville area.

Also, Needle Palms can actually have the lower leaves pruned as they grow more and it'll expose their short trunk. Most people don't know that, but do you think it'd make any difference if they did?
Most likely not. I think you just need to accept that outside of certain geographical areas, palms of any sort don't appeal to a lot of people looking to landscape. Especially if you want to have a nursery or landscaping business in TN. There are a lot of other trees and shrubs that can offer winter interest and they don't always have to be evergreens.
Personally I find the lacy look of a well formed dormant tree in winter to be of more interest than a palm tree.
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